Applying the subjective, Part II

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by Gary Wassner, Feb 25, 2008.

  1. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    If every morality is a recipe for a certain type of man, an explication of a vision of what man might be, then is morality aesthetics after all?
     
  2. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    So why are there three of these threads? :confused:
     
  3. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Not sure what you mean. ;)
     
  4. KatG

    KatG The Bony Hand of Death Staff Member

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    Because this is Gary's favorite subject. :)

    Okay, morality and subjectivity. This is not my area of expertise. I can only go by my own thoughts on the matter. Which is that morality is not aesthetic. It is a matter of many different factors -- biology, threat levels, emotions, comprehension of context, time pressures, culture and religious belief, personal experience, etc., that all effect how we see things but are not all subjective.
     
  5. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    Isn't morality more prescriptive than ruminative?
    Having identified a morality, a person attempts to act out that morality. It works even better when lots of people agree with the man's identified morality. See the Tale of the Bagelman in Freakonomics. Evidently, in our culture, there is a high level of agreement.

    Why were there three threads? The Quester had the flu which weakened his iron will enough to allow his other personalities freedom to ask questions. In an illustrative case of shared morality, they alll came up with the same question.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  6. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    The real question is, is morality just a matter of taste, are the definitions we come up with for good and bad arbitrary, just a matter or taste? Once again we're dealing with qualitative issues. How different is it really to claim something is good or bad from claiming it's beautiful or ugly?
     
  7. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Yeah I'd go for morality as principally aesthetic. Most people mean Law, Order, and Justice when they say Morality.

    If you compare morality and justice as being part of the same system, it's no wonder our current relativistic state has come up with this retarded notion of "hate crimes."

    Who cares why you committed the crime, it's the action that's supposed to be punished. What's next -- "hungry theft"? If you're starving because you're a crazy homeless person, by all means rob a grocery store. The theft wasn't so good, but your reasoning is valid. You're special and the rules don't apply because you're crazy homeless and hungry.

    Good and bad motivation?

    Eff that.
     
  8. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    I suubmit that it makes no practical difference which way you go.

    Update: Given that every group of two or more people establishes its own operating morality, code of conduct if you will, and the existence of said moralities contributes mightily to the conflict in our world, would it be desirable, as some current moralities seem to think, to convince everyone to abide by a single morality?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2008
  9. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Under multiculturalism... difficult to say.

    In theory, one culture = one set of morals. So multiple cultures is multiple moralities. But what happens when two or more sets of morals provide different answers for one problem? This is why I think social morality needs to be arrived at democratically in a multicultural society.

    Which is why the jury system seems like a good idea up until the "peerhood" of ones peers is called into question by multicultural reality. Can we be guaranteed that jury members of different cultural backgrounds are holding up different shades of one morality? Or are they representing their own cultural morality within a different system of morality? If so, is their judgment viable?

    Hell, is the legal system even reflective of morality in the first place?
     
  10. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    No, the legal system is about laws.
    In the beginning, much flag waving and appropriate rhetoric was given to the idea of Justice but that gradually faded into oblivion as we elevated The Law to a position of godhood. Consider the marriage of the terms Law and Order.
     
  11. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    An awful lot of the laws sound like morals to me... Thou shalt not kill (it's bad), thou shalt not steal (it's bad too), thou shalt not nail thy neighbour or his wife (doubly bad in the first, still bad in the second)...

    Granted laws seem to only reflect the bad side of morality. But didn't the law come from morals? And isn't Order just the branch of the system that is supposed to make sure you're being morally good, and to catch you if you're morally bad?
     
  12. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    Distinguish between possible laws (sic commandments) and The Law as used in the good ole U.S. of A. I do not believe there are any laws on the books in the U.S. that begin "Thou shalt not." While this is disappointing to many citizens, many other citizens are quite comfortable with this state of affairs.
     
  13. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Yeah, I know there's the whole "separation of church and state" thing... What other source do you suggest is the basis for the American constitution?
     
  14. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Separation of Church and State? And yet our money says "In God We Trust"?

    The fact is that our entire legal system presupposes a Judeo Christian ethic, which defines good and bad from a philosophical POV, the premises of which are derived from a belief in first principles, ipso facto, God.
     
  15. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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  16. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Interesting site. I hope Tex sees it ;)

    Here's a question I'd ask of Gary as he seems to be a particularly strong proponent of atheism (and feel free to jump in, all you heathens): As post-colonial Europeans, or Europeans actually, is our "moral code" outwardly different in appearance than the Judeo-Christian moral code? If yes, how and why? And if no, what does that do to your sense of morality?

    Beyond that, is the African-Christian or Asian-Christian (etc.) moral code the same as the North American-Christian moral code? I'm not so sure...
     
  17. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    I can't figure out if I am an atheist or just simply against Judeo-Christian religions. It's the formal organizations I cannot abide but what that says about the existence or non-existence of a god I am not prepared to say.

    I suspect there is no difference between moral codes as all x-Christian moral codes must be based on The Golden Rule. Where the difference arises is in the religions associated with the X-Christian moral code - and that goes to practices and theology rather than moral code.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2008
  18. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Well, according to some philosophers, Christian thinking created evil. Prior to Christianity, the distinction was between good and bad, defined by heroism and subjugation. Bad was noble badness. Christianity turned bad into evil and took the heroism out of it. Resentment as the motivating force, supplanting success and victory, turned all things natural and strong into evil and 'unworthy of heaven' actions. The afterlife negated the value of this life. The Old Testament was a bloody story of violence and power. The New Testament an altogether different perspective based upon denial of this life in favor of another fantastical one. turning the other cheek was a slap in the face, an expression not of humility but of resentment, derived from weakness of spirit and the inability to fight for oneself.

    So, I guess it depends upon whom you ask.......
     
  19. Hereford Eye

    Hereford Eye Just Another Philistine

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    I always thought Christianity rested on the problem of evil. Considered for a long time, death is evil. It happens without rhyme or reason, not only to people, but in all of nature. So, create a place where death has no power, say a garden where the lions lay down with the lambs, where man is as perfectly innocent and pure as the rest of nature. Now, introduce evil. You need an agent, of course, and who better than women. Afterwards, you can explain that, yes, man is flawed - that's why some men do bad things - and it's women's fault.
     
  20. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    :mad: Neither of you answered my question though, and I'm curious...

    (Regardless of whether we're relativists, humanists, essentialists, absolutists, whateverists...)

    If the morals held by Unbelievers are indistinguishable from the morals held by Believers, what is the difference -- if any -- to our sense of personal morality?

    One of the primary attributes of a psychopath is an inability to distinguish right from wrong -- not a lack of exposure or education, but an actual inability. A psychopath can, however, generally tell the difference between "in my best interest" and "not in my best interest."

    If the Unbelievers profess widespread internalization of agreed upon "best interests" and "not best interests" as the basis of a non-absolute societal moral code, yet unlike the psychopath we have the ability to distinguish right from wrong as both an emotional and intellectual conviction, what then does that say about the moral code of Unbelievers or Believers? If they're indistinguishable, are Unbelievers just kidding themselves, and morals really come from something hard within? Are Believers kidding themselves that it comes from somewhere "outside"?

    Do the people in the middle who profess "i don't know" have more or less conviction that their morals are correct? Does one's impression of the source of morality change one's personal morality?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008