HBO's Game of Thrones Season Two [SPOILERS for EVERYTHING ASOIAF!!]

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by teahupoo, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. KatG

    KatG The Bony Hand of Death Staff Member

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    Really? Did she whisper it? I did hear her add him to the list -- by that time I understood he was there -- but I totally missed that line in that scene. I will have to play it back.

    She's an archetypical tough, brave, feisty good girl. She's tending to the wounded on the battlefield, with a saw, and it is not her job -- it's something that she's chosen to do and is highly dangerous for her to do, which is why Rob is wondering why she's there -- she talks back to the victorious King of the North who could have her killed in two seconds (whether she's a noblewoman or not,) about being a war-monger, she shrugs off his warnings that she should be careful and accept his help. She's the definition of scrappy. :) It's not a horrible thing; it's just the usual thing on t.v.

    You know, it's really wild how often people block this out about Tyrion. My husband forgot it too. And yet, it's a critical experience for him that enormously effects his behavior and sanity throughout the books.

    When he was thirteen/fourteen (in the medieval world of the books, so adjust to 16/17 in the t.v. series,) before the books begin, Tyrion with Jaime rescued an orphaned peasant girl named Tysha from accosters. Tyrion married Tysha and hid out with her for a bit. Then Tywin, his father, arrived, had Jaime admit that Tysha was a hired prostitute and the rescue a set up so Tyrion could have sex, and then Tywin has Tysha raped by his guards and then by Tyrion: "Lord Tywin had me go last...And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." Tyrion was young, and being abused by his father in the demand, but he was also angry with Tysha and humiliated and so did the deed. As Bronn points out, it isn't sufficient to say he was forced and had no will. Tyrion contributed in a multiple rape and destruction of the girl he had loved. It haunts him with guilt but also a great deal of anger. It effects a lot of what he does, both bad and good, and with women. In Swords, Jaime tells Tyrion that he lied at Tywin's command and Tysha was not a prostitute but exactly what she appeared, a peasant girl who at least cared about Tyrion. And Tyrion then goes basically insane and does some more bad stuff and stays that way for awhile, including bouts of suicidal thought, running around thinking about Tysha's unknown fate: "where do whores go." So it's kind of seminal for him.

    In the t.v. series, Tyrion tells this story to not only Bronn, but also Shae. He says he watched the rapes and then is kind of vague over the issue of participation on his part. They sort of gloss over it, because again, they've been cleaning Tyrion up a bit in the series, making him more sympathetic and noble roguish. So even when Tyrion is ordering his cousin to keep having sex with his sister, people tend to find it charming. :) But Tyrion has done bad things and does not see himself as a noble person. Watching the gang rape is participating and is not a noble act either. He also does some good things, but there are quite a few other more noble characters in the series -- Ned and Robb Stark, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the guy, but he's never an angel and very practical minded, even when being sentimental. And he's a rapist, but a regretful one, forced into the same screwed-up mold as the rest of his Gothic family.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  2. Werthead

    Werthead Registered User

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    They're saving money for a bigger battle later on :)

    Actually, I think this scene is going to replace the one in the book where Cersei has Alayaya beaten up (which happens off-page). So when Tyrion finds out, this is where his 'joy to ashes' speech to Cersei comes from. It's a less-elegant way of getting there, but with Chataya/Alayaya out of the show, making use of the established characters of Ros and Daisy does make more sense. The only problem is that we haven't seen Tyrion meet them on the show and they're not protecting Shae (as Chataya and Alayaya did in the books), so the vehemence of Tyrion's response is going to have to be sold on the grounds of common decency and humanity, which is laudable but a harder sell.

    This compression of events is also what's going on in the Stormlands. In the books we had the parley between Renly and Stannis and what follows, Melisandre birthing the shadow to kill the castellan of Storm's End and Littelfinger parleying with the Tyrells at Bitterbridge as three separate events (two on-page, one off). This episode just combines all three into one sequence. It's a nice idea, actually, but not sold entirely successfully. Most stupidly, they don't have a CGI model of Storm's End in the background. If they did, it would explain where the grill Davos is complaining about at the end of the episode comes from (otherwise why would Renly's army scout tons of nearby caves and then stick bars in one? Seems extreme for a place where they're staying for just a couple of nights).

    Also, it's a bit odd that we've had impressive establishing shots of the Stark and Lannister encampments, making it look like there are thousands of men around, but the absolutely vast Tyrell host doesn't even get a single establishing CGI shot, even when Renly says, "Look at all those men over there."

    It's still unclear why Conan Stevens had to leave. According to him, he was not asked back for Season 2 even though, despite his heavy schedule, he could have made it back. According to the producers, he left to work on The Hobbit movies and on the Spartacus TV show. Sounds a bit of an unusual situation.

    The question here is whether Tyrion did rape Tysha in the TV show and he simply didn't tell Shae and Bronn, or whether they've simply changed it so he didn't do it at all (like how they changed it so Sansa didn't directly betray Ned in Season 1). Intereseting to see how that unfolds.
     
  3. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Staff

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    'cos the non-spoiler thread gets absolutely no discussion whatsoever. Last season it was largely me talking to myself, I believe.
     
  4. Palfrey

    Palfrey Registered User

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    I noticed that too. It wasn't clear from the scene where the cave led to.

    All of the Dothraki and the Ironmen are rapists more than Tyrion is. In regards to Tyrion though:

    I could never understand why people failed to think differently of Tyrion after he killed his father. Murder is murder. The same goes for Arya killing the singer from the Night's Watch. Death might be the penalty for desertion but that wasn't her call to make. I just find it funny that people castigate Dany more for being wishy-washy in Meereen than they do other characters for committing murder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  5. KatG

    KatG The Bony Hand of Death Staff Member

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    No, Tyrion knows both Ros and Daisy, which is why he selected them for Joffrey (not knowing that Joffrey would decide to get back at Tyrion by torturing them.) Tyrion slept with Ros when she was at Winterfell and he visited there with the king in Season 1, (the money he gave her from that helped her get down to King's Landing,) and Daisy was the prostitute in bed with Maester Pycelle when Tyrion has him arrested this season. Tyrion gave Daisy three silver coins to make up for scaring her. (I should point out again that I find them to be perfectly nice prostitute characters. It's just that they are being overused, I feel.)

    Yeah, I had to explain that one to some people. See, originally, they're sneaking in to a fortress... They aren't always perfect at compression and communication. It's such a large production.

    I think the CGI shots of the other two armies were due to complaints about Season 1, where we really didn't get to see battle scenes. They're still not showing the battle scenes, saving up for Blackwater, but they're saying, see, look, these big armies are fighting each other! Whereas since Renly's host isn't involved in a battle yet in the official story, they content themselves with just talking about how big the army is.

    My suspicion is that they will leave it vague or have it be that he did not, because they are afraid the audience will find him unsympathetic, and the incident can still serve as a fulcrum for his character. But watching your wife get gang raped doesn't make you the most noble character in the thing either, is all I'm saying. Martin had reasons for not making Tyrion all heroic, but again, that sort of thing does get most readily tossed on a t.v. show, as you note with even Sansa. Still, they've kept very true to the books overall and certainly in spirit.

    All of which is irrelevant to the issue, Palfrey. The point is, Tyrion has his hands dirty too, which he's very well aware of and which effects his behavior. Murder is murder, as you say, and rape is rape.

    Because Tywin committed massive crimes and so people tend to see it as an execution, not a murder. Tyrion had been Hand of the King and in charge of dispensing justice. And in the books, Bronn admonishes Tyrion for not killing his father when his father ordered Tyrion to rape his wife. So for Tyrion, he's doing something that he should have done long ago, and in a sense, Tyrion is killing himself for his failures in killing his father. At this point, he's gone mentally unhinged and remains that way for quite awhile. Even more of a murder is Tyrion killing Shae, who really had no choice but to betray Tyrion if she wanted to live. Killing her is also part of his guilt and rage over Tysha and when he's gone around the bend. But still, yes, again, it's part of the darker side of Tyrion and why he's suicidal for awhile. Arya's killing of the singer is also a huge mistake for her, (a bookend with her killing the boy in her escape from King's Landing,) and has a large effect on her character.

    As for Danys, people want her to be the scrappy good girl -- the queenly strong warrior female version -- and when she doesn't go whomp ass and keeps trying to find other methods for peace, people get upset because only versions of courage that we associate with very male behavior tend to get valued. On the positive side, we now expect women to be kick ass. On the negative side, we now frequently have a backlash if a woman character is not kick ass and is brave in other ways. Indecision is also not met with much acceptance -- people didn't like Ned's indecision on how to proceed either.

    This is what Martin likes to do -- take a character, expect you to see that person in one way and then send the character in a different direction. Then back the other way. :) The series follows this too, but they are smoothing off the edges so that there is less change, more traditional roles/behavior to an extent. So Stannis is not as layered, etc. But eighty percent of the time, I think they've done a good job.
     
  6. Luya Sevrein

    Luya Sevrein Humble Grifter

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    As for the reasons about not thinking differently about people after they have murdered, all I can say is that this is a different world. Robb has killed countless farm hands and Squires on his battlefields I don't doubt - men he never knew and had no gripe with. At least Tyrion and Arya were wrong.

    Death is wrong, but less so in this setting. It is also an expression of human emotion - vengeance, for example. Something that can not be expressed or accepted through or burocratic system but that will drive through most of us at some point. It's a good thing to have in any kind of story - for the good or 'bad' guys.
     
  7. Palfrey

    Palfrey Registered User

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    That isn't different from our world. We used to force people do go to war too.
     
  8. Luya Sevrein

    Luya Sevrein Humble Grifter

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    Our world currently, I meant.

    Well, maybe not... I was shocked when I was little and first found out war had 'rules'. >> I always assumed it would be a last resort because no one was listening to anyone else's rules and sanctions. I guess not much has changed, power, class, who dies, etc. We just pretend it has.

    Anyways, not to get off topic - death and murder was more part of life in a place like Westeros, not just in terms of war.
     
  9. saintjon

    saintjon Illustrious Gambler

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    So despite my misgivings about some still pics of Gwendolyne Christie she has panned out as Brienne pretty brilliantly. When I saw Pyatt Pree I actually said, "perfect" out loud. Stannis is more believable as Stannis every episode. Oh and Jaqen! JAAAAAAAQEEEEEEEN! I hope this show gets an Emmy for casting if there is one available. There's so many marks to hit and they keep pulling it off time and again. Everyone in my living room last night vocally agreed that the worst thing about the show is when it ends every week. Great stuff!
     
  10. algernoninc

    algernoninc Now I'm an axolotl

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    Jaquen did great in this episode. I'm getting used to the new faces, but my favorite scene in THe Ghost of Harrenhall is on the Fist of the First Men : the light, the sweeping vistas, Dolorous Edd reprtees to Sam Tarly, Qhorin, even a glimpse of the direwolf: loved its contrast to the golden light in Qarth and the gloom of Harrenhall. Daenerys is a bit too short and pretty to pull off a commanding presence, but Jorah Mormont is doing a good assisting job in her scenes. I know Bran is not everybody's favorite, but he's doing holding his own well against the older actors, especially the exotic wildling Osha.

    Things are heating up plotwise, I hope we will get to see Jon's wildling in the next episode and more with Arya. Looking forward also to the clash between Brienne and Jaime.

    I believe this is the first episode without sexposition. Hurraah !!!
     
  11. raggedyman

    raggedyman Registered User

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    And the amazing Maisie still amazes!
     
  12. Hobbit

    Hobbit Now.. A Seriously Likeable Administrator Staff Member

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    And this episode means that we're halfway through Season Two, doesn't it?

    Despite the lack of 'sexposition' (ha ha, love that, algernon!) in Episode 5, how do people feel the Season is shaping up?

    Mark
     
  13. algernoninc

    algernoninc Now I'm an axolotl

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    I feel they're going a little too fast through the book. I hope the rumours are true and book three will be split into 20 episodes.
     
  14. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Staff

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    Thoughts as-I-watch:

    1. Brienne. What. What. No, seriously. What. There was absolutely no build up to that moment at all, and her personality changed completely.
    2. Bron(n) - Tyrion's right hand? He's awesome.
    3. Your grace. Your grace. Your grace. Your grace.
    4. Mention of Blackwater. Oooh.
    5. She's a foreigner? Well, duh.
    6. Hehe. Stannis is awesome. Davos just got hoisted.
    7. Yay for the preacher. Joffrey is rotten. Well, understatement of the year there.
    8. Ohhh kay. Chinfluff (Theon) gurning at the camera there. Well, that's me scared.
    9. Snort. Hahaha. He's so puffed up. I love to watch him get deflated. I AM YOUR CAPTAIN
    10. Yara! :D
    11. Everyone's bloody filthy in that place.
    12. Who's he? Dagmar? I didn't quite catch it. He seems reasonable.
    13. Wait I think I missed something there. What... um... Theon wants to piss the Starks off 'cos daddy says so?
    14. Arya just death-stared Tywin.
    14.5. Thus, Arya is awesome.
    15. Who's the bloke who talks funny?
    16. Sam. Just Sam. Ha.
    17. Lovely clouds.
    18. "Well, I read it in a book" Ha.
    19. No third horn? Pfft.
    20. Hahahaha. "I've not tried that experiment"
    21. "Our order does not deal in pigshit!"
    22. Tyrion has another plan.
    23. Daenerys' other assistant is not a happy bunny. JEALOUS.
    24. Hahaha that's a good light moment involving the peacock
    25. HOLY CRAP IT'S A ZOMBIE
    26. HOLY CRAP TWO ZOMBIES
    27. Brienne back to normal, I think. I hope.
    28. Brienne and Catelyn should form a team and have a spin-off series.
    29. Oh wait they almost are.
    30. I think there's something a little wrong with the way Brienne is portrayed. She seems too quick, and not in a deceptive way. I mean she moves way too quick in general.
    31. Hodor!
    32. Hodor!
    33. Oh! It's her! My favourite character who never bloody appears! Osha!
    34. Jon looking rather like I did at work this last week due to all the wet weather.
    35. Whoopsie, he just said "I LOVE YA" in more words than were needed.
    36. Um... he lost his shirt.
    37. THUD.

    Anyway. Um... Better episode than some as it was better paced and took a step back to advance the plot with some of the stronger characters. It didn't just throw you in for the most part, it just built upon what was there.
     
  15. KatG

    KatG The Bony Hand of Death Staff Member

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    Best episode of the season, for me, and not because there were no bare breasts (well, unless you count Gendry's.) Most of it was a series of conversations, but what wonderful conversations they were and so beautifully acted by everyone. Everything rocketing ahead. I loved everything in this one. Except Margaery's dress -- she looked like she escaped from a Devo music video. Although it was quite chaste for her so far. I am now accepting new Margaery because while she's stereotypical, she's fun and the actress is clearly having a good time playing her. She will eat the increasingly unhinged Cersei alive. Yes, the surprise that she is not an innocent miss is gone, but if we're going to get rid of it and go bold, might as well make it interesting to watch. She has scary eyes which are growing on me. (She's spookier than Melissandre actually.)

    I can't decide which conversation I liked best. Probably Stannis and Davos edges out the rest because it was so subtly done and because I love Davos. But the Jaquen-Arya conversation was perfect, and the Danys-Jorah conversation really worked. Loved the snow scenes, Tyrion wrestling with King's Landing, all of it. Renly died a good death scene, although the shadow seemed a bit obscured. I will miss him. And if my husband doesn't stop shouting "Tonks!" every time Osha comes on screen, I may have to do something dire. But she was excellent also.

    Who wants a baby dragon robot? Me! Definitely jazzed about the rest of the season now. Do you think they managed a mastadon in the budget or no?
     
  16. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Staff

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    That's true. It looked really odd. Mind you, she's not had a good dress so far. It's either been wacky or cleavage-chilling.

    And now I looked up Tonks and just developed another girl-crush. Thanks, Kat.
     
  17. KatG

    KatG The Bony Hand of Death Staff Member

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    1. Brienne. What. What. No, seriously. What. There was absolutely no build up to that moment at all, and her personality changed completely. -- Really? I thought it mostly fit the book. They broke it up from the birthing of the shadow last episode. They have to do it relatively fast. If you keep expecting long build-ups, you're not going to get them in the series. They wanted to get certain info out there, so she's less restrained emotionally.

    13. Wait I think I missed something there. What... um... Theon wants to piss the Starks off 'cos daddy says so? -- No, daddy said raid the villages on the coast. The first mate points out that Iron-born raiders don't always stick strictly to orders and that the crew will be more likely to follow Theon for bigger prizes. So he suggests going after the fort, which will draw Stark defenders, which then lays Winterfell open to attack. Theon thinks, I could pull this off. (Oh poor deluded Theon.)

    14. Arya just death-stared Tywin.
    14.5. Thus, Arya is awesome. -- "Anyone can be killed."

    15. Who's the bloke who talks funny? -- Jacquen! The Nameless Man. As you say, Thud.

    19. No third horn? Pfft. -- No, it was Halfhand coming to the camp. One horn. And a lecture about what the horns mean for those who forgot from Season 1.

    23. Daenerys' other assistant is not a happy bunny. JEALOUS. -- She's not jealous exactly. She's worried that Danys will forget that she is the Dothraki Khaleesi and that her loyalties are to the Dothraki, and fears the foreign maid is maybe too great an influence now that they are in Qarth.

    30. I think there's something a little wrong with the way Brienne is portrayed. She seems too quick, and not in a deceptive way. I mean she moves way too quick in general. -- She's a brilliant fighter. That means she has to be able to move quickly.

    33. Oh! It's her! My favourite character who never bloody appears! Osha! -- Oh come on, they've invented lots of scenes for her.


    I like your lists.
     
  18. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Staff

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    Really? I thought it mostly fit the book. They broke it up from the birthing of the shadow last episode. They have to do it relatively fast. If you keep expecting long build-ups, you're not going to get them in the series. They wanted to get certain info out there, so she's less restrained emotionally.
    But I've not read the book. To me Brienne went from standing in a corner silently to crying her eyes out. Where was the build up to that? The logic, even? It just happened. You never saw her get invested in Renly enough for it to make sense. To me, anyway.

    No, daddy said raid the villages on the coast. The first mate points out that Iron-born raiders don't always stick strictly to orders and that the crew will be more likely to follow Theon for bigger prizes. So he suggests going after the fort, which will draw Stark defenders, which then lays Winterfell open to attack. Theon thinks, I could pull this off. (Oh poor deluded Theon.)
    Oh, right. I find it hard to follow Chinfluff's scenes 'cos I just want to punch him. Constantly.

    "Anyone can be killed."
    Yup. Proof Arya is badass.

    Jacquen! The Nameless Man. As you say, Thud.
    Oh. He's pretty cool.

    No, it was Halfhand coming to the camp. One horn. And a lecture about what the horns mean for those who forgot from Season 1.
    Was more me kinda commenting on the fact they went on about the third horn and it didn't happen, as it might typically do so in other productions. You know, that whole "jinx" thing.

    She's not jealous exactly. She's worried that Danys will forget that she is the Dothraki Khaleesi and that her loyalties are to the Dothraki, and fears the foreign maid is maybe too great an influence now that they are in Qarth.
    Ah, I see.

    She's a brilliant fighter. That means she has to be able to move quickly.
    Yes, I'm not disputing that, but I mean certain actions seem to happen too quick. Her drawing the sword to swear her oath just moved too quickly for me, and it didn't look right. She seems very careful and well-paced in her movements in general, so anything quick like that stands out to me. Could have been a hiccup with the online viewer thing though.

    Oh come on, they've invented lots of scenes for her.
    She's only appeared two/three times this season so far, though. The scenes with her, Bran and Hodor tend to be amongst my favourites. I like her attitude and her style, but I like the idea that a young boy is overcoming his disability and is shaping up to be a competent leader.

    I like your lists.
    Thankee-sai. I have the Reply window open as I watch GoT, so I just type what's on my mind, hence the occasional "Ohhhhhh" point.
     
  19. Palfrey

    Palfrey Registered User

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    I agree, Jaqen was perfect. Too bad that's probably the most we'll ever hear him speak.

    Not much else to say... I liked the whole episode.
     
  20. Evil Agent

    Evil Agent Saturn Comes Back Around

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    Best episode of the season.

    Brienne is 100% PERFECT. The abrupt reaction to Renly's death was because A) she loved him (this was a surprise in the books too), and B) she was sworn to protect him with her life. She failed her sworn oath, and saw her King/love die right in front of her; of course she's going to go crazy. I thought the scene was perfection. I did think there was some lack of momentum/buildup, but that it was most likely due to the fact that they saved Renly's death for this episode, instead of ending the previous episode with it (I think that would have been better).

    Stannis/Davos had their best scene yet, by far.

    Tywin/Arya was amazing.

    Jaqen is perfect.

    Pyatt Pree is soooooo creepy.

    So far, I think each episode has been better than the last. This week's episode covered so many story lines (everyone except for Joffrey, Sansa, and Robb) but the pacing felt right, not rushed.

    I'm sad that we're already halfway through, but I'm fully expecting the next 5 episodes to be pure awesomeness.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012