Power, Fantasy, & The Joy of Fanaticism

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by kged, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Afrobro

    Afrobro Registered User

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    Youre right he didnt outright say 9/11. but pearl harbor or some other attack on a country by another does not fit the definition of terrorism. country on country would be an act of war ie pearl harbor.........

    I did read 9/11 into it but any act of terrorism commited against the "West" works just as well. I still stand by my point when has the "Western/christian" ideals which the post described reacted to acts of agression with the idea that we werent meek enough?? Pearl harbor i think not.

    Also yes the people advocating mass conversion and islamophobia in america are quite mainstream. For further proof of this you can check out Colin Powell statements on meet the press yesterday. I have heard this said on National Tv by pastors, generals, commentators etc... I hardly think these people constitute a narrow sector.

    Are you really trying to tell me that the idea that Islamophobia and the idea that Christianity and Islam cannot coincide are fringe unnaccepted views in America. PLz...


    As for the last part youre really nitpicking and taking my point out of context there. The discussion was about fundamentalism if i remember correctly. So here ya go

    Christian fundamentalist have launched just as many wars and selfish acts as any Nietzsche follower or any other religion. Also the point wasnt about the number of wars or to state that anyone was more prone to barbarism or war. If you read the rest of what i wrote i dont see how you got that idea.

    The point was that you cannot equate the rise of christianity or its supposed followers to ideals of liberalism, humanism and the general meekness which Thor seems to lament in his post. These are two seperate ideas/schools of thought and for much of thier shared history they have been in opposition to each other. You took that wayyyyy out of context
     
  2. Davis Ashura

    Davis Ashura Would be writer? Sure.

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    Well, Thor did add a (what have you), so other kinds of violence can be filled in. To your question of meekness: Spain when it was railway-bombed. I read that section as Thor alluding to the certain strain of "why do they hate us-ism" that seems to be prevalent.

    Bro, plz... I made no claims in that regard. I asked a question. I still haven't heard the name(s) of one mainstream figure who is advocating mass conversion of Muslims. I seem to recall that general though I can't find his exact quote saying something like that. I suppose such people are present, but in what context do they make their advocacy? As formal U.S. government policy? Or through missionary work? There's a big diff b/n the two. Just to keep things clear, I'm asking again, not stating as fact that they do one or the other. As for Colin Powell: didn't he have something definitive to say about weapons of mass destruction?;) You're probably right about the mainstream accepted view that Islam and Christianity can't co-exist. However, is such thought unique to the West? Doubtful.


    Well, perhaps I was nitpicking. And after re-reading your posts, I got your second point mixed in with your first. But come on, bro, 300? Geopolitical? Cowardly? That was just a movie about some unnaturally ripped dudes kicking ass (the donkey kind, mods, not the curse word). If it was cowardly and not deep enough, then you went into it with expectations that were way too high. Why was it successful? Probably because it let you turn your brain off for two hours and fantasize about laying some serious whoopin on the totally unrighteous. Nothing wrong about that. Just don't try it in real life. I just don't buy the whole "geopolitical dimensions-moral-philosophical angle of its appeal that you and Thor seem to be laying on it.
    Straying waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. Hope someone can get us back.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
  3. Afrobro

    Afrobro Registered User

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    Sry Dont want to come off as an over analytical a%%hole so let me say that for me this has been an interesting/fun conversation all around.


    Ok I will concede on the first part a little as I maybe was to quick to read 9/11. My point still stands that the standard Western/Christian response to agrresion/terrorism is not we were not meek enough. Do you diasgree?

    However you are right About the why do they hate us sentiment so if thats what thor meant i misread it. I also must point out that why do that hate us-ism probably has less to do with christianity and/or liberalism and more to do with an hugely overblown sense of Nationalism/jingoism we dont apolgize greatest nation on earthism and all that jazz that a lot of americans accept without question.



    Well I would like to argue that you can dispute 300's sucess as nothing more than a good action flick cause i can think of a lot better ones that did not do so good recentlyy.
    (of course i do realize that we have entered the realm of specualtion here)

    I definetly think the context of brave white/western male standing up to the outsider in the name of freedom/ justice and all that was right was defintely some of the underlying sucess of this movie.

    I will admit though that at the time I saw it I was at A Southern Military College in S.c (yeah...thats about as far right as you can get lol) and I know this played a role in the students there so maybe I am SLIGHTLY overattributing its sucess to these factors.

    as for Colin Powell he lied for bush and there are books and the film W to aupport this fact. So while we can question his integrity his grasp on whats going on i think is unquestionable. He tried several times to dissuade bush from his war.


    Sry I cant provide any specific examples of advocating mass conversion killing/holy war on terror, but the islamophobia is undisputable. Americans speak in Code words when they discuss subjects such as this. As for as names go i think you were referring to....

    Lieutenant General William G. Boykin (Retired) was the United States Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence retired in 2007 served in Iraq
    He has gained notoriety for his Christian Fundamentalist views over the last few years and some unprofessional public remarks. Boykin is a born-again Christian, who has cast the "War on Terror" in apocalyptic terms. A Pentagon investigation concluded in 2004 that he had violated regulations by failing to explain these remarks were not made in an official capacity

    **from wikipedia but you can verify it on any online newsource.

    from newsgroup

    Giuliani was also hurt when the co-chair of his veterans' campaign in
    New Hampshire, John Deady praised Giuliani for being able to stop "the
    rise of the Muslims," an effort necessary to continue, he said, until
    "we defeat them or chase them back to their caves, or, in other words,
    get rid of them." When asked if he was really condemning all members
    of the religion, Deady replied, "I don't subscribe to the principle
    that there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. They're all Muslims."
    Deady was forced to resign after a video of his remarks was put on the
    web by the Guardian

    All they want to trade is burqas...
    " The senator seemed to be relating the Muslim custom of veiling to
    terrorism. The Detroit Free Press, whose city has one of the largest
    Muslim populations, reported on Jan. 12 that McCain's remarks were
    hurtful to American Muslims. "Local Muslims say that criticizing al-
    Qaida is legitimate, but wonder why he would make a snide remark about
    a dress?

    Michael Blake, an Iraq veteran explained that the military indoctinated troops with the idea "Islam is Evil" and "they hate us." This attitude facilitated the abuse and killing of civilians, and was not just 'a few bad apples'. (There are around 2000 unreleased torture images). "Most of the guys I was with believed it", he added. Maj. Gen. Charles Swannack, a former 82nd Airborne commander insisted that responsibility for such abuses ultimately lead "directly back to Secretary Rumsfeld," as an architect of the torture policy.
     
  4. KatG

    KatG Effulgent Staff Member

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    Okay, interesting conversation, but if we could bring it back just a tad toward the fantasy fiction, that might be good. :)

    I don't think 9/11 or Iraq had much to do with the success of 300. I think it was the scenery chomping, the special effects look of the movie and other aspects that mattered more. Not that I'm saying the story wasn't complex.

    But if you look at it, it's about a group of men who willingly go off to their deaths, and with the knowledge that even that sacrifice might fail. This is an interesting situation. And this might be the sort of thing that kged finds interesting and is grappling with why he's interested. For me, there are certain circumstances where I would go willingly to my death, so it's not such a big disconnect, such characters, even though their philosophies are very different from mine. But I can understand them, I can even admire aspects of their views, without necessarily wanting to be them. It certainly doesn't indicate a deficiency in one's psyche, to have a comprehension of another's thinking. But you do have to be careful not to reduce that other thinking to simple black and white precepts, I think.
     
  5. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    Been meaning to post here for awhile now, but it's been busy for me last few weeks and the evolving discussion's meant I had to modify and extend my response.

    It's hard to stay on purely fictional grounds when by its very nature all the best fiction and fantasy fiction (which are only degrees of the same thing, since all fiction is by definition fantasy) deal with the big issues of the era that produced it.

    Fanatical fantasy has been part of the various zeitgeists for…well…ever, and often people weren't able to tell it from their real lives. Just look at The Song of Roland. Almost pure fantasy, but the peasantry believed it was a historical account. It was the Iliad of its day.

    There's a nasty tendency among humans to enjoy romanticized fanatics and totalitarians and despise their unromanticized counterparts as evil. It's a holdover from a time, not too long ago, wherein every society was by definition a totalitarian society.

    Too many people just don't seem able to live with freedom, which is why they choose to live in a totalitarian in-group of one kind or another. The beauty of the West, however, is that you can choose to enter or leave such in-groups. They might put psychological pressure on you and try to insulate you from other ideas, but they can't legally compel you with force or execute you for leaving (not unless the sharia law advocates have their way in Europe).

    Indeed, some of history's worst offenders have had to water down their doctrines or stop enforcing them in the interest of keeping their adherents.

    The problem is that this tends to generate passivity, but the liberal worldview is just that: a worldview. That means it's an artificial mental construct that needs to be actively and deliberately instilled even in the face of competing totalitarian memos that are following a collective will to power by seeking to maintain their integrity and expand.

    For more insight, I'd recommend "The Suicide of Reason" by Lee Harris, "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and "While Europe Slept" by Bawer.

    Regarding Thor, I think he's right on the money in most cases, but I'd make a proviso there: the Nietzscheian supermen he mentions weren't acting in spite of Christianity, they deliberately worked to spread it in the interest of advancing the power structure where they reigned supreme and in crippling any other Nietzscheians who might rise to challenge them.

    Sure, they had to play along in order to stay in power, but not as much as one might think, considering ideas like the elect and the divine rights of kings.

    The problem arises when someone who actually believes this stuff gains power and honestly thinks that homosexuality leads to earthquakes and tidal waves and that a nuclear apocalypse will lead to a new and better world. Talk about Song of Roland, these people are living in a fantasy world!

    And I loved 300. Especially that final line: "Today we rescue a world from mysticism and tyranny and usher in a brighter future."

    That, and the emphasis on people using their reason (and having the courage of their convictions and the willingness to fight for what you believe in) declares the spirit of the movie.


    Vote Kellhus in '08!
     
  6. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    P.S. I'm being ironic about the Kellhus endorsement, in case you're wondering.

    Why choose the lesser of two evils?


    Vote Kellhus in '08!
     
  7. Afrobro

    Afrobro Registered User

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    The Movie is a joke and a huge offense to me in many ways. To me it's right up there beside birth of a nation. Pure historical Propaganda.

    Thor was right on the money in what way??
     
  8. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    Of course 300's not historically accurate. Spartan society was a facist one that emphasised total devotion to the state and the whole purpose of their warrior cult was to keep control of the helots (is that spelled right? Too lazy to check) and the Persians were comparitively more egalitarian to their subjects, but to enjoy the theme I regulate it to a sort of alternate universe historical fantasy.

    Thor was right in his implication that history is made by those with the courage and the will to fight for what they believe in.


    Vote Kellhus in '08! (or come up with something better)
     
  9. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    Just to clarify my position: if someone made a movie where the theme was: the country's become decadant and unholy and we can't trust our own reason, let's set up a nation that'll do the Lord's work, where people grovel to the gods and priests, forbid anything that's counter to our ideology and view every other nation or (possibly) race as evil, then I would despise it no matter what historical event they tied it to or how good the special effects were.

    For example: I hated The Village. It was a well-made movie with a lot of good moments, but I hated its implication that society has to be kept in a state of superstitious fear and primitivism in the interest keeping everyone docile and happy. It was the last Shyamalan movie I’ll ever see.

    Note: I don't demand that the movie be banned and I won't organize boycotts. I simply choose not to watch it and I will explain to others why I find fault with it.


    Vote Kellhus in 08!
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  10. algernoninc

    algernoninc Now I'm an axolotl

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    I found "Idiocracy" far more disturbing about what the future has in store for us than "The Village" :eek:
     
  11. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    Ah, but there be a difference twixt satirical speculation and advocating.

    BTW, what is an electrolite anyway???


    Vote Kellhus in '08!
     
  12. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    P.S.

    'Course, like I said, fiction can feature facts and satire is based on truth. We might be closer to Idiocracy that we think:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2203120/

    So the choice is between this and that other fool Obama? Is it any wonder I'm voting Kellhus?


    Vote Kellhus in '08!
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  13. RAD

    RAD Registered User

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    P.P.S.

    And to veer the thread kinda-sorta back on track, I confess to liking The Postman, so I don't know how fanatical that makes me.

    Vote Kellhus in '08!