Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by Erfael, Feb 8, 2006.
Hi, post all discussion on TTT which may contain spoilers in this thread.
Jeepers no one's taking up the spoiler gauntlet yet eh?
Might as well get it rolling with some SPOILERS!
Do you guys think Cnaiur died at the end? I'll have to re-read his last section but it seemed like he was just knocked out in that pitch-black labyrinth (which certainly could lead to death anyways).
Well, I am going to give all three novels a slightly more thourough re-read sometime this year (well paced novels get me so wrapped up in the plot I tend not to read as closely as I could). But I got the impression that Cnauir is well on his way to becoming a full blown agent of the Consult, if not one of the chief weapons to be used against Kellhus in the second armegeddon. I certainly hope to see him again if the Aspect Emperor gets written/published (and it better!)
I agree with that. Also, Scott is or should soon be working on Aspect-Emperor, so I guess next year we might see the first book.
Anyway, what does everyone think about the talk Kellhus had with his father? Who thinks Kellhus is actually wrong in his thoughts, and truly might be crazy? There's definitely more going on there.
And what about the No-God? Did anyone read the encyclopedia entry on him? I don't recall it being mentioned before this book about his specific protection, the Carapace/metal sarchogous, but doesn't Kellhus appear at the end somewhat similar to the description of the No-God? If I recall, he appears in a whirlwind and pulls up the debris about him into a shield that surrounds him. Maybe the No-God is some sort of negative form of "thought" and not an actual person/being? If God is everyone, or everyone is God (or has the potential to be God/part of God), what is a No-God?
intersting idea. the No-God does say 'What am I?' maybe because he is nothing or the absence of.
^^^^That's possible: it could fit Kellhus being the "Prince of Nothing."
Anyway, I thought up another question: what's with Akka's "bad dream" at the end? Where he sees the one king speaking the words of the No-God? I found it interesting that it ended with the No-God calling out his name, as if calling him through the dreams.
Also, the narrative almost seems to suggest that the No-God is using Kellhus: repeated mentions of how the Cants can make someone think they're their own person but yet rule them, Kellhus resurection in TWP (he even doubts how it was possible somewhere late in TTT), his increasingly bastardly decisions after the point of his death in TW-P, his contradictions (he suddenly starts calling Moenghus "disgusting" and "sinful" and so on in their confrontation, and Moenhgus calls him out on why, because Dunyain typically don't follow such logic of labels--Kellhus ignores him and continues on), his dialogues with the No-God/himself, the Consult's plan seeming to be to merely make him THINK they're trying to stop him, and so on.
I think we're going to have to reread some of the Darkness that Comes Before's prologue, as well, for extra hints--it seems important, and a few sections seem to sync up with later knowledge (possessed Esmi says the same words as in his nightmare.)
those are some good thoughts. the more i think on this book the deeper it becomes. bakker wrote a hell of a story and to think it's only a 1/3rd done.
the dream Akka has at the end upset me because it comes with a feeling of dread for the Three Seas. the idea that the No-God is using Kellhus is compelling as Kellhus does seem to act a bit more aggressive but maybe that is the Shortest Path.
I think Kellhus is seeming a little unhinged because of the way the meaninfulness of the world is asserting itself before him. I think he started to call Moenghus wicked because where he stands evil is starting to have meaning, in a weird way he's starting to value human life I guess.
Interesting comparison between Kellhus and the No-God. Ah jeez I just travelled about 5000 miles in a truck in 4 days, can't form thoughts too well lol.
So, anything more now that you've (hopefully) gathered yourself together? Come on, people, let's get discussion going in here! All we need is for Scott to come in and give us cryptic non-answers to every theory here....
Anyway, was anyone else surprised and almost shocked at the final 100 pages? Nothing happened quite like it would in other books: Kellhus--who is certainly "gray" right now, as we can't quite say what he intends or if he's even in his right mind, and cares nothing of the lives of people around him so long as they further his goals (hmm, I wonder why he cares so much about the goals; he pretty much has no purpose but to do as ordered, and now he doesn't even seem to follow that)--is in complete control of the Three Seas, our "hero" Akka is love-interestless (though he seems to have found some of himself), the Second Apocalypse might come, and the Fanim--most of them innocents, although fanatic--have been wiped out (no big "Akka saves the day by showing the Inrithi their errors/uses magic/helps the Fanim escape doom/betrays his side/the Fanim and Inrithi decide to be friends and have a tea party" for Shimeh). Pretty bleak stuff, though it definitely "touches" the reader as an emotional cord. Plus there's many confusing or baffling mysteries left, and although we will no doubt see some answers in the sequel, that means the trilogy is not self-contained, as many would "wrap it all up" instead and have the sequel be a rehash or about a bigger, badder threat out of nowhere.
Is this the new "Gollum destroys the ring!" ending of fantasy? The one that will certainly be hated or disliked by many of the readers, but become a famous or classic ending later? I think it could be.
I didn't exactly get what the demon Iyokus summoned did to Akka at the end. I had assumed it had been sent to kill, or at least blind, him but in then end it seems to have merely knocked him unconcious, cut his leg, give him some sort of wound to a single one of his eyes (it is said that he can't open one eye but the extent of that injury in never revealed), and leave him near a small villiage not far from Shimeh. Any ideas on why Iyokus would leave his punishment at that or, if the demon had been meant to Akka further harm, what prevented him from doing so?
When it picked him up it was already dying, so when it flies off with him, it eventually tumbles to the ground (probably the ocean/water), Akka floats away, washes up near the village, and the people he wakes up to find him.
After a marathon reading session (which I rarely get to do anymore) I finished this book last night. Wow, what an ending to a great trilogy. Hats off to you Mr. Bakker.
I figured Maithanet had something to do with Kellhus and Moenghus. Since The Warrior-Prophet, I thought Maithanet was Moenghus, especially when he showed up at the Mandate hq.
I think Cnaiur will definitely be back. His "ending" was very obscure. As somebody else said, he probably will become an agent of the Consult.
Kellhus is one of the more interesting characters in this genre. He's definitely in the "gray" area, that's for sure. I'm not sure what to think of him. He may ultimately end up saving the world, but his methods are very questionable.
I'm happy to see others with the same questions that I have, because I was worried that there was something I might be missing.
I have another question to add. What exactly were Moengus's motives? Was he trying to help the Consult so he could save his own soul? Was Kellhus supposed to help him achieve this?
Upon finishing this series, it definitely ranks as one of my personal favorites. One of the series I'd recommend to anyone. I don't think I've read anything so damned smart before.
I've actually begun to look at people's motivations and psyches differently after reading TTT: that's why the Dunyain "darkness that comes before" is so great, as it can be applied to real life. I know consider influences when I think about why people do things, so I have some answers now than just confusion at what could make them think that.
Anyway, I think Moenghus was against the Consult, hence all the tortured Consult members and all: I'm not sure what he wanted, but it might be that he's not as much of a demon as we've been led to believe--remember, we see everything from everyone around him, through rumors and things we're supposed to be believed as true, but never in-depth (if I recall, Cnauir's memories of his father's death, etc. are distorted things like seeing a big black shadow of a man and odd lapses in memory where he'd cut from portion to a much different one, so we never much directly "see" him except from maybe a mention or two when he and Cnaiur initially met--as for Kellhus, he's always mentioned that he needs to kill him, according to the Dunyain, and something about seeing his father's dark grinning face. Yet these don't really match up with who we meet.) I'm almost suspecting that if the No-God/Consult are not manuevering things, then it's the Dunyain high council/ruling body themselves.
I think someone in a forum on Three Seas said that the Dunyain and Consult might have similar goals, anyway ("sealing" the world from the void.)
What the hell was the "sealing" and "void" about anyway? It's one of those things where my comprehension floundered, as I'm not sure if "void" meant space or something in it, and what "sealing" was (I know it's supposed to be killing everyone on Earwa, but I'm not sure how that works to "seal" it) and how that would save the soulless really (we know it's supposed to be because there's no one touching the void, therefore they cannot be punished...so is the void some sort of God aspect, like Akka spoke of?)
'Sealing' - Supposedly if you send enough people on their way to afterlife it will 'seal' the passage. Hence no possibily of going to hell and thats what the consult wants to spare themselves from.
That how I remember anyhow...
Okay, great. I just finished, loved the series, but was not quite sure what to think about the last 100 pages. I think I will need a re-read to gather my thoughts and then post again with a hopefully stronger opinion.
I specifically logged on now to see what you all had to say, as I thought I might have missed something obvious (been reading in short stints on tubes and buses).
I perceived a link between Kellhus and the No-God; and that Moenghus may have pre-planned the journey of Cnuir to keep a check of Kellhus (not sure of the extent of that...). Maithanet's role was kicking me through the whole series, but I never thought that he was Moengus as it seemed too obvious for Bakker.
No physical battles between Cnauir and Conphas (thought that may be on he cards heh) but their debates were very eye gluing. Actually, I did wonder if they would both tag-team Kellhus.
It's funny, I am not missing the series yet (as i do with those that i love) as everything is still rattling around in my mind.
Great series - now off to start Eriksons Bonehunters (great timing)
Is it just or did Cnauir might have raped Conphas in the one diner scene where he just "blacks out" and wakes up with blood. I thought it was just a beating, but...
Uh, you're thinking wishfully dude. My gratitude to Scott for time lapsing that one cuz I really can't think of any other reason you'd be washing blood and feces off of your piece in the morning.
Well, this was one of the chapter's I read through quickly, so I didn't pick up much from it.
That's totally understandable if you were reading really fast I guess.
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