Theon Greyjoy - Spoilers!

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by Kanin, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. Kanin

    Kanin Traveler of Worlds

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've only read the books once, when they first came out. But I've forgotten what happened to Theon.

    I know he took over Winterfell, but what happened after that?
     
  2. Iskaral Pust

    Iskaral Pust Registered User

    Joined:
    May 29, 2003
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    After taking Winterfell he had always assumed that his sister would back him up with more warriors, however she didn't. His small force couldn't hope to hold Winterfell, so he razed it to the ground and left for home. Beyond that all we know is that his father is now dead, so he faces a power stuggle with his sister and uncle in which he is at a severe disadvantage because he is alienated from his people. And his sister seems quite popular.
     
  3. Evil Agent

    Evil Agent Saturn Comes Back Around

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    6,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    171
    STORM OF SWORDS SPOILER
    -
    -
    -
    I could be wrong, but didn't someone like Roose Bolton's bastard come and take Winterfell, and THEY burned it down? And didn't they kill Theon?
     
  4. Voland

    Voland New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Theon is the captive of Ramsay(?) Bolton, aka the Bastard of Bolton, who after dispatching Ser Rodrik outside the walls of Winterfell and thereby saving Theon, proceeded to take Theon captive, burn Winterfell to the ground and take off to the Dreadfort.


    He then sent someone (Catelyn or Robb???) the skin from Theon's little finger.
    Theon is in all probability alive.
     
  5. Kanin

    Kanin Traveler of Worlds

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the update. I always liked reading Theon's chapters and in Storm of Swords he disappeared. I hope he features in A Feast of Crows. The interaction between him and his sister was always good.

    Especially when they first meet again after Theon goes back to the Iron Islands. Classic stuff!
     
  6. Voland

    Voland New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    SPOILERS FOR A FEAST FOR CROWS FROM DRAGON MAGAZINE #305















    As far as the powerstruggle in the Iron Islands goes...Asha was beaten by Euron for the crown.
     
  7. someone

    someone The Wall must fall

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bolton said Catelyn that Theon is still alive, but he could lie.
     
  8. Khallandra

    Khallandra Autobot

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    629
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I closed mindedly think that he's still alive because I refuse to think that my favourite character has been flayied alive ;)
     
  9. Jay_T

    Jay_T New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Although he isn't my favorite chatacter (Tyrion, Littlefinger), I like reading about Theon myself, and definitely hopes he makes a return, however I'm pretty sure he isn't going to survive the series.
     
  10. fybonacci

    fybonacci Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    POSSIBLE SPOILERS




    How can you like Theon!? He's a traitor! Robb Stark sent him to negotiate with King Whatvr and he turned against him. I hate traitors! I hope Theon dies a painful death!Together with the Freys and the Boltons.
     
  11. Jay_T

    Jay_T New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Last time I check Theon was a Greyjoy, he sided with his father, and given teh circumstanc he didn't have much choice.

    I really have no remorse for Rob. He got himself killed by making the smost ridiculous and foolhardy decison concievable betraying the Freys ,who fought for, and died for him, and risking there loyalty over a woman from a house of no importance.

    He decided to lose the war, and his life when he made that bonehead choice.
     
  12. Evil Agent

    Evil Agent Saturn Comes Back Around

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    6,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Theon is a likeable bad guy, but he's still bad.

    THEON SPOILERS
    -
    -
    I know he felt he was acting out of loyalty for his family, but if you re-read the series you definitely see the point where he decides to betray the Starks. He'll kill any of them to reach his goal if he has to, like Bran or Rickon or whoever, and they were once as brothers to him. That's just wrong!
     
  13. Jay_T

    Jay_T New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No they weren't, he was only close to Robb, , there was never any indication he had any aprticualr bond with any of the others.

    As far as killing off the family of the man who defeated your family in war and took you as a hostage (whether well treated or not), in order to get by or improve a given situation, I see nothing wrong with line of thinking, particularly in th eWestero's setting/society,

    .

    I think one of the points of Martin's series is to illustrate the ridiculous notion of absolute evil/good being prevalent within his characters. I don't think Theon is bad or evil he did what he to given teh situation. The fact that he is self-serving puts him with the majority of the population, not the opposite.
     
  14. Evil Agent

    Evil Agent Saturn Comes Back Around

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    6,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Good points. Especially about Martin's style of showing you a character's motivations, and removing the good/evil cliche.

    However, there is still wrong and right. And despite Theon having reasons for his actions, I think most readers still feel what he did was 'wrong'. Even Theon seems to know it, I'm sure there were a few sections where Theon was wrestling with his guilty conscience. At the end of SoS, he's even contemplating taking the Black, becoming a member of the Nightwatch, and at that point he seems to realize that his original motivation was outdated and that he shouldn't have betrayed the family that raised him as somewhat of a foster-son.

    Anyway, I like him, he's a great character, and I do feel sympathy for him. But I'm just a die-hard Stark supporter, so I'm angry at his betrayal. :)
     
  15. Khallandra

    Khallandra Autobot

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    629
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    He's a product of his circumstances. Snively, whiney, bastard yep he's all those, but why? Um he was kinda a prisoner since being a little boy - heck even the bastard son was seen as being better than him - everyone hated him - they may have played the 'oh he's okay' face but deep down he was and still is the enemy. Now if you grew up in that situation wouldn't you be only out for yourself? No matter the cost to anyone else? That's his fundamental flaw, he really didn't betray the Starks because he never really trusted them. He looks out for number one at all times.

    I like him cause that's exactly what I would be like if I was in his shoes - though maybe a little less whiney....
     
  16. fybonacci

    fybonacci Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I do not think the Stark parents treated Theon as a prisoner. They treated him as they treated their own children. I think that if the Stark children didn't treat him very well, it is because of his character and not because of his origins. Jon was loved better by the Stark children because he is a pleasanter person and for children that's enough grounds. He did betray the Starks because THEY trusted him and he knew it. It doesn't matter whether he trusted them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2005
  17. Jay_T

    Jay_T New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I fail to see the point, whether he was treated maliciously or not is irrelevant; he was still a prisoner, a hostage to insure Balon Greyjoy's loyalty, which was defintely an issue as Balon had proven more times then once, in the past and then again in the future.

    Whether your jailor treats you with benevolence or malice, he is still your jailor thus your a prisoner. Theon was not in Winterfell by choice.

    When Theon was sent to the Iron Islands by Rob, IMHO he defintely had all iintentions of serving Rob's will and cause; thsere is little doubt in my mind that he consider sRob genuinely as his friend. It was not until his father decided to reject the claim (whcih really put Theon in a unenviable position IMHO) that Theon started to really overstep, more out of wanting to be recognized by his father, and sibling competition, then any hatred he had for the Starks.

    His father declared war on the Stark, whom he was a hostage of, it is irrelevant how well they treated him IHMO for him to justify or not justify his actions. He noted himself only Rob, ever treated him with kindness.

    I don't think Ned or Catelynn were hateful to Theon at all, but I think it's obvious they treated him with what his station deserved, he was a hostage but still the son of a Lord. They didn't treat him unkindly, in any out of the ordinary manner- they would have done the same to anyone in a similar circumstance, of similar birth.
     
  18. fybonacci

    fybonacci Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Theon was a child so how he was treated is all that matters. By your logic any child who is not allowed to go to some places (which is probably all of them) is a prisoner. Though it is said that Theon was taken to ensure Balon's loyalty, we hear Caitlin herself say that they wanted to take Theon to give him a more gentle upbringing. So this whole thing might be viewed as taking a child away from abusive parents into the care of nicer ones. It seemed to me that Ned and Caitlin treated him the way they would their own child, and not just as a young lord of high station.

    Trying to win acceptance of anyone, including your biological father or siblings whom you do not really know, is a quest of vanity. Theon was not an outcast, desperate for acceptance anywhere. In fact he was a trusted man and advisor of Robb, who loved him as brother. Betrayal of this trust for vanity seems rather morally wrong. And so does taking and burning down the place where you grew up and killing a bunch of people who have been kind to you.
     
  19. Jay_T

    Jay_T New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's; an absolutely ridiculous stretch - I don't care how he was treated or what Ned and Catelym though they were doing. Theon wast taken from home and was a hostage to insure Balon's loyalty. Period.

    That is a huge difference between a child not being allowed to go play outside

    I
     
  20. RAD

    RAD Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    they wanted to take Theon to give him a more gentle upbringing. So this whole thing might be viewed as taking a child away from abusive parents into the care of nicer ones.

    SPOILERS

    There's no evidence that the Greyjoys were abusive, they just raised their kids in a way that Ned and Robert dissapproved of (for good reason as it turns out: they raise their kids to be pirates).

    When they said 'gentle' him that only meant raise him to be obedient to them when he succeeded Balon: by encouraging him to befriend folks in the North, he would be less likely to order raids against them. We see some of this reluctance in CoK.

    Theon is a deeply conflicted and insecure person. Because of this, he is easily influenced in times of personal stress by Ramsey when he kills those two kids, their family and his own men to keep the secret. He's also easily influenced by Luwin when he urges Theon to take the black.

    He's even influenced by Asha, though in reverse, since her advice to burn down Winterfell and head back with her automatically polarized him against it (ironic, since she's the one person he should have listened to at that point).

    Taking Theon as ward was a mistake all around: it did not ensure Balon's obedience, since he still had Asha or Eurion (spelling) as successors. The attempt to build a bridge of understanding between the Iron Islands and the rest of the realm only weakened Theon personally.

    Furthermore, Ned and Robert's plan to groom Theon as their puppet ruler wouldn't have worked either: the Iron Islands would never have accepted him. He'd have been given tot he Drowned God within a week of sitting the Seastone chair.