Unmasking the jedi

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by Jacquin, Jan 14, 2005.

  1. Jacquin

    Jacquin Shovelly Joe

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    I'm currently reading Shatterpoint, the first Starwars book I've ever picked up, and although I'm enjoying it I am having trouble with one thing...

    I am not sure I like hearing the thoughts of a Jedi Master.

    Let me try and explain, I am one of the Starwars generation. I don't mean Episode 1, I don't even really mean The Empire Strikes back and the Return of the Jedi (although I did see them both at the cinema). To me the ultimate Jedi is old Ben Kenobi. He was mysterious, he was hard as nails cut from solid diamond and he was without a doubt certain of himself. To read a Jedi having doubts is dificult for me.

    J
     
  2. Spears&Buckler

    Spears&Buckler MJ Dusseault

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    I definitely understand your meaning. Jedi should be strong and leaderlike and all that, but I also think self-doubt is a part of life. Even the strongest of heroes must go through dark points in their lives, and Mr. Stover does a great job of bringing these ideas to the surface.
     
  3. kahnovitch

    kahnovitch Kiss my axe!

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    The essence of being a jedi is that endless conflict between the light and the dark as they constantly walk the thin line between the two.
    The lure of the dark side comes in many forms and a Jedi can be tempted in many ways by it's influence.
    Try living a single day without these desires crossing your mind; greed, ambition, lust, love, hate, anger, envy, vengence or just getting grumpy in the morning because you're out of coffee, sugar or milk.

    All jedi have gone throw the doubting stages, even Luke and Obi Wan sailed close to the edge on occassion.
    It's par for the course of being a Jedi.
     
  4. Jacquin

    Jacquin Shovelly Joe

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    You obviously misunderstand me. I am not talking about the allure of the dark side, though that probably deserves a thread all to itself, I am talking about trusting the force. I am talking about a Jedi knight, a master no less, a member of the Jedi council having doubts about himself and his actions.

    I know people are all shades of grey, and therefore it is only fair to cast the Jedi in the same light, but being as that Obi Wan Kenobi in Star Wars was the only true Jedi when I first discovered the Starwars universe, in my head I created them all to be the same. He is wise, he is powerful, he is infallible, he is completely selfless and he is, well there is no other word for it, Jedi. Yoda only served to strengthen that viewpoint and now we have Mace Windu shattering all my preconceived ideas as if he had found their shatterpoint.

    I should add that this isn't a complaint, one of the things I love about Matt's writing is the way he makes us question what good actually is. You identify with the bad guys once you've worked out who the hell they actually are and so you can't help but root for them as well as the good guys. It is just hard for me to be shown the faults in a group of people I previously considered faultless.

    Now Berne, he was a BAD guy... :D
     
  5. JRMurdock

    JRMurdock Where have I been?

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    But one must think about one think in relation to Old Ben and Yoda. Both were hermits and hiding from the Empire. Why? If they were so certain of their power, would they be hiding or would they be out there fighting the good fight?

    I am also a member of the Star Wars generation and I've had a LOT of time to watch the movies over and over. I've come to the conclusion (though I've not read Shatterpoint) the Matt may have hit it 'spot on'. A Jedi Master's self doubt may have been the begining of the end for the order of the Jedi.
     
  6. MWStover

    MWStover Registered User

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    Hey there.

    It's only two and a half months until I can start talking about REVENGE OF THE SITH. In detail.

    Until then, let me just say two things. One, Jedi are individuals, with individual problems and individual struggles.

    Two, I love Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Love that guy.

    Just you wait, J. Just you wait.





    Really.
     
  7. Baylen

    Baylen New Member

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    My understanding is that overconfidence led to Jedi becoming somewhat complacent, hence the Sith took them by surprise. Like Matt said, Jedi are individuals with Obi-wan and Mace specifically being human at that.

    -Rob
     
  8. kahnovitch

    kahnovitch Kiss my axe!

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    It's sounds like the classic question of faith with all the usual conflicts of any religion/belief system.
    Do you follow it blindy or question it's intergrity?
    The answers vary from person to person depending on personality, past experience, expectations and ambitions etc.
     
  9. Jacquin

    Jacquin Shovelly Joe

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    Well I think Shatterpoint answers that quite well. As I understood it, it is the act of taking part in war that kills the jedi, not the losing of it. By not fighting both Yoda and Obi Wan remained true to their Jedi training, hence the fact that they survived, because as someone once said "if you fight with a Jedi you have already lost,"


    Absolutely, having finished the book I can see why, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

    Now unless you fancy shipping me a preview I guess I'm gonna have to... :mad:

    But that is my point. Jedi are not just people, they are Jedi and so different rules should apply. Like I said earlier, I can understand why, I can even enjoy reading it, but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy the fact that someone has removed my preconceptions. After all can you honestly say that when you first watched Starwars and you realised Ben was Obi Wan, a JEDI you didn't automatically think that made him somehow special? You didn't just think, gosh, that old bloke's good at concealing his doubts and fears...
     
  10. kater

    kater Filthy Assistants!

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    Thats the trouble though isn't it, there's always this romanticised image of the indestructible character, who never mis-steps, who always makes the right choice. And it isn't sustainable because that would make it boring fast, yet when the image is shattered we want it back. Without the doubt the Jedi are two dimensional characters, archetypes or symbols rather than believable characters. Yet with it they lose the stigma of being 'super-human', we like the myth. I think thats why Lucas killed off Ben Kenobi in the original trilogy, the character was just too wise and knowing to keep fans believing it for three films, but make him a martyr and hey presto guaranteed hook. Compare him with Luke, conflicted hero-in-waiting and suddenly the Jedi are more appealing. They are fallible, yet stronger as a result, and also we are allowed to see that experience is the base for their wisdom and talents. Meaning that they don't flop out of the womb fully fledged Jedi knights.
     
  11. Shehzad

    Shehzad High Priest of Cainism

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    Kater, that's spot-on. I agree fully.
     
  12. Joe Bloggs

    Joe Bloggs New Member

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    Considering that most of the Sith are ex-jedi anyway, it's not surprising that they are prone to self doubt etc.
     
  13. Jacquin

    Jacquin Shovelly Joe

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    They are?

    It was my understanding that turning to the dark side was a Jedi throwing off the doubts and strictures of the Jedi and using the force for their own benefit and impulses and therfore leaving behind self doubt and "weakness".

    I actually can't think of an instance of a Sith having self doubt except for when Vader was redeemed by Luke's adherence to the Jedi ideals even under torture, and this could be him returning to the light side and therefore becoming Jedi again...

    J
     
  14. kater

    kater Filthy Assistants!

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    Or Joe meant that because the Jedi had self-doubt it wasn't surprising they went to the dark side?
     
  15. Jacquin

    Jacquin Shovelly Joe

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    Maybe, but we are talking about Mace Windu here, he's supposed to be the best thing since sliced Yoda...
     
  16. Joe Bloggs

    Joe Bloggs New Member

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    The thing about the Jedi is that they live like warrior monks and have a lot of restrictions put on their lives by following the "Jedi Code"i.e. knights of honour/chivalry/justice etc.
    They set themselves very high standards of behaviour, which in all honesty would be hard for anyone to live up to. I think this causes a lot of internal conflicts as they must constantly follow the side of light like latter day paladins.
    The further you stand on the moral high ground, the easier it is to fall and one you've slipped up as a Jedi it's mostly all downhill from there.
     
  17. kater

    kater Filthy Assistants!

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    Yeah I mean aside from Vader to an extent there isn't much literature on members of the Sith going the other way, which is surprising given how interesting such a topic could be. Is it likely to be because Lucas wants a clear definition of 'good' and 'bad', that got this topic started in the first place, in his universe with the ocassional fallen angel?
     
  18. juzzza

    juzzza Loveable Rogue

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    Just thought I would chime in, as I'm nearly through SHATTERPOINT.

    Nicely done MWS.

    'we are forked' :D nice one.
     
  19. Shehzad

    Shehzad High Priest of Cainism

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    May I second that. Obi-Wan WAS probably the epitome of the Jedi in the series, but nowhere more so than in RotS.
     
  20. LeStat

    LeStat Registered User

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    Hm. I never liked some things in star wars...

    1) if u can use force to crush metal objects, tear apart tons of dors - what could u do to bio mass like a human body... desintegrate it with a thought...

    second thing - FORCE doesn't have a brain - humans do-

    I' mean u are not good person if u cut someone with a knife but bad one if u do it with a gun-

    If jedi can manipulate force - with water, wind, lightning, fire, atoms, heat - it is just same force ...

    u are not evile if u shape force in one way or good if u use a lightsaber...
    that is crap...

    It is all about morals and personal ethics. U can do beautifull stuff with force not just be butcher with lightsaber and be good.