What do we REALLY know?

Discussion in 'Fantasy / Horror' started by Gary Wassner, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. falcon57

    falcon57 Registered User

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    > how do you know that gravity really exists?

    Well you don't. All we got are models that are used to predict it's effects and they work pretty good.
    I wonder what is meant when someone says 'Electricity exists'. We as a race know enough about nature
    to build computers but does that imply that electricity exists?

    > I stand by religion because it can be proven in a different way.

    I think this site escpecially the thread "Scripture: History or Fantasy?" is evidence enough to
    prove that proof is a contested word ;-) It is the goal of many to put forth proofs that god exists/
    religion makes sense so it is proven and above criticism. Ironically many creationist argue
    that Darwin just put forth a theory that could be wrong. A theory that can not be falsified is not
    a good theory. If I say: "The word apple is red" then there is no way to falsify that claim. If
    I say: "Apples are red" a single green apple will prove me wrong.
     
  2. Seak

    Seak and I like to party.

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    I agree. What you've illustrated is a logical fallacy. You can't prove something is right on the grounds that it can't be proven wrong.
     
  3. WyrvenGuard

    WyrvenGuard I Has Good Writing

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    The word APPLE is red...

    hmmm, that looks green to me ;)
     
  4. Seak

    Seak and I like to party.

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    I think you win WyrvenGuard.
     
  5. WyrvenGuard

    WyrvenGuard I Has Good Writing

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    lol but do I really win?

    haha thanks Gary for this thread ;) (oh and I'm 87.3% more sarcastic than serious, so don't take anything I say too seriously... I'm also 65.8% more reduntant than original, so keep that in mind too)
     
  6. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    And I'm an officer from the Department of the Redundancy Department. I'm revoking your privileges which are hereby revoked.

    :cool:
     
  7. WyrvenGuard

    WyrvenGuard I Has Good Writing

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    Nice to meet you officer Koo, I'm a member of the Department of Management of Departments of Randomness, and I must suspend your status in the DMDR. Please hand in your Badge to the security guard at the gate, and we'll keep you informed of the Departments on going investigation of the abuse of power case now open against you.

    Good day sir.
     
  8. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Good day to YOU, sir.

    :D
     
  9. zorobnice

    zorobnice Where's Tonto

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    You know after watching the first Matrix movie, I remember coming out the theatre with the weirdest sensation, that just maybe, it was the truth, and then really what is the truth. Oooops sorry we already have that thread??:D
     
  10. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Hence the genius of Linklater's "Waking Life." The animation so perfectly backed up the concept that one couldn't help but feel painfully aware of the ubiquitous artifice of existence, and at the same time be utterly depressed by its sheer level of mundanity.

    Dangit... there I go trying to be deep again. It was a sweet movie!

    Ah, our tenuous relationship with "consciousness"...
     
  11. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    I refer you to your testimony on "Evidence" of the existence of God in the "Oh My God!" thread, sir.

    "It cannot be proven that God does not exist, therefore one must assume that He does." Or, in your words, "not everyone sees the evidence."

    It's the self-same logical fallacy. All you've done is substitute your subjectivity for an objective "certainty" -- your argument here suggests that the fallacy denotes untruth. Therefore, if your money is where your mouth is, the argument that "not everyone can see the evidence" is itself evidence that God does not exist.

    Using double-negatives as "proof" or "evidence" seems like an awfully silly thing to do, though, nay?

    It's only when we negate the concept of "certainty" as a binary relationship that we can argue for (or against) anything. Certainty and Uncertainty are thus the same thing -- neither paradoxical nor mutually exclusive, but a relational and combinatory continuum.

    Thus, with God, neither case is true or false. For God to exist, he also must not exist. Both sides of the argument are true.

    So if that's "true," then what do we reeeally know?
     
  12. Seak

    Seak and I like to party.

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    Which is why we need God. J/K :D Good arguments are circular right?

    My point was that I have evidence that God exists, it's just that you wouldn't believe me.
     
  13. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Uh Oh!!

    I am firmly convinced that I can transport my mind to other places and leave my body behind. I have very personal evidence to confirm that, but you wouldn't believe it.

    In fact, I have personal evidence that YOU don't really exist outside of my mind! What say you to that? Or better, how do you even respond to that?


    Convince me you exist?
     
  14. Seak

    Seak and I like to party.

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    That's my point. You can't convince anyone of anything they don't want to believe.

    If you are convinced of those things, then I am sure they have become truths to you. Hence, what do we really know? It's what we choose to believe individually.
     
  15. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    *smacks self in head*

    That, too, was a joke, right?

    Cuz if it wasn't, you proved my point... :D
     
  16. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Hence my assertion that God simultaneously exists and does not exist. Can you allow that?
     
  17. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Surely the concept of God exists. But the leap from concept to existence itself is the greatest leap of history.

    Concepts exist or can exist for anything, and they need not even be consistent. But a concept is a concept and a thing s a thing.

    Better to locate the thing and then derive a concept from it. When we create things from concepts, we do the thing a misservice frequently. This is true for things that we can create. Things that pre-exist our creation of them can be described and analyzed only.

    What is God?
     
  18. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    Concept and existence are the same thing until proven otherwise, are they not?
     
  19. Gary Wassner

    Gary Wassner GemQuest

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    Phenomenologically, they are different.
     
  20. Fung Koo

    Fung Koo >:|Angry Beaver|: <

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    No they aren't: we are taught that God is inside and outside of us, that our soul comes from God, that God gave us life. The logic of the concept is the same as the logic of the existent thing. God exists, therefore we exist; We exist, therefore God exists. Our world and it's life, and chiefly our life, is the bond between the abstraction of God and the existent object of God. So they're the same, even phenomenologically.

    As we both know, that's what's so frustrating about it. It's completely cyclical and self-reinforcing. But no matter how you slice it, God is simultaneously subject and object, existent and non-existent.