[saintjon]

I had a lucid moment heading towards North Bay a few hours ago, it was another shortcoming of the Dunyain. I love to try and find weaknesses in their Dunyain armour because they scare the hell out of me. Telemarketers get people to buy things IRL, these guys would rule the world in a week.



*****OH yeah there's some SPOILERS FOR THE WARRIOR-PROPHET***

It seems to me that Kellhus being among the foremost Dunyain, the biggest trouble he's having is that his self-knowledge is being undermined. The Dunyain have a very deep, potent sort of self-knowledge happening, but it has the same weakness as science does in that it's based on controlled conditions. Now that Kellhus is out in the world with the chaos of thousands around him I think he's approaching a crisis, the fact that he wept for Serwe is going to force him to re-evaluate his understanding of himself. I wonder if another Dunyain had found him at that moment would he have been able to weild his influence on Kellhus, or would the fact that Kellhus is conditioned allow him to prevent this?

Then I got thinking about that review about the philosophical contrasts between Cnaiur and Kellhus, I would add to what that article said the notion that Kellhus' self-empowerment is based on the system he was raised into whereas Cnaiur's self-empowerment is more in spite of the other Scylvendi.

I also caught on that Cnaiur being all stressed about the unceasing measure of others, it's interesting that the measure of other's rolls off Kellhus like water off a duck's back, he seems to be the one measuring and evaluating people all the time.

Anyways I can't wait til the next book comes out.

[Leiali]

More Spoilers:

I just finished the book yesterday, and one chink in the armour of the Dunyain that seems to be getting bigger and bigger is the fact that Cnair (can't spell his name) is now not alone in his distrust of Kelhus. The fact that Achamian, Proyas and possibly Esmenet are beginning to feel manipulated could be quite an interesting development. Serwe was an extreme example of his never being questioned, the true conquering came in his dealings with other characters and toppling their assertions (except possibly Achamians, in that Kelhus seems to agree with him about the consult) then replacing them with his own. I find the possibilities fascinating - particularly his relationship with Achamian.

I'm not sure that Kelhus is the ultimate Dunyain - I am more inclined to think that Moenghis may very well be better at the logos, though we haven't met him yet.

[saintjon]

Yeah I dunno about Esmenet, but Achamian is definitely on to him now (although I have my doubts that that will prevent him teaching Kellhus the Gnosis anyways) and Proyas for sure.

There's really no way around being VERY curious about Moenghus at this point is there?

As for better Dunyain, well the only one in the story so far I think might be better (since we havent' seen moenghus yet) would be that High Pragma guy from Kellhus flashback.

Actually, didn't Kellhus remark to himself that Moenghus had been ultimately sloppy among the Scylvendi, since Cnaiur had caught on to them at all?

[Leiali]

I think the Dunyian having been in isolation as you say has had an impact on how Kelhus and Moenghis have been practicing their logos. But I think Moenghis is more powerful than Kelhus, it may even come to a stand off between them....Anyway, I am interested in seeing how the two of them compare in how they have responded to the outside world. It may be that Moenghis made a mistake with Cnair (who was not powerful at the time), but had more success with the Cishuraim (powerful as a whole), and that the opposite may be the case with Kelhus, in that he has alienated the powerful, and opted to concentrate on the masses. Anyway, since they always function on the basis of everyone and everything being a means to an end, but that end shifts, changes, and isn't always revealed, I would be more interested in finding out Kelhus's goal and then Moenghis.

[saintjon]

It may be that Moenghis made a mistake with Cnair (who was not powerful at the time), but had more success with the Cishuraim (powerful as a whole), and that the opposite may be the case with Kelhus, in that he has alienated the powerful, and opted to concentrate on the masses.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone point this out before, that does seem like an important contrast.

I want some cool moenghus moments/explanation but I also really want Cnaiur to kill him. I don't think he'll be able to, but it would make me very happy for my favourite pscychotic barabarian.