[kongming]

Well now you've hit the head. I see God/Universe as omnipotent. So s/he is all and nothing. S/he exists and doesn't exist. I'm not hedging my bets, I was just suggesting that I personally think that it would make sense if someone did.

And yes I am in wonder of the universe, isn't everyone? :)

And the only justification is as I said: I sense God's presence equally but in a very different way that I would sense your presense if we were in the same room. So I'm not saying I assume that God's there, I'm saying I know that s/he is.

It sounds to me as if you are simply in wonder of the universe. To feel and see God in everything is to feel and see God in nothing, in a way, though it's a pleasant perspective. If you are hedging your bets by believing, I won't fault you. But there has to be another justification, doesn't there?

[Gary Wassner]

So, in that case, let's move on.

For those who believe ardently in the existence of God, can we assume then that scripture is viewed as a depiction of history? I mean, why not? As I have said many times, if we accept the first proposition, then anything at all is possible. But, even fantasy!

[kongming]

Yes, I view the bible as a depiction of history. And I view the Illyiad and Odysey as one too, and Three Kingdoms and La Morte DÁrthur and the tail of genji.

As for fantasy well no I don't view it as a depiction of history I view it as a commentary on it or as just a great tale of morality.

[Gary Wassner]

And in four hundred years, how will they view some of the books of fantasy we read today? What are the distinctions? Certainly, some of what you listed were intended to be historical representations. But, was the bible intended to be that? Do we really know? Or was it intended to be metaphorical?

[JRMurdock]

kongming, here's a direct question for you.

With a bilion budists and a billion hindus (all with religions older than Christianity, Jewish, etc. I realize I'm estimating here.) what makes 'God' more right than the others? Christians are far outweighed by other 'heathen' religions. So what makes God right and the others wrong?

[kongming]

I don't think it was intended to be a work of fiction with a good message. The Jews as far as I know don't see it that way and the Jews that passed it down orally never said that or the ones that finally wrote it down. When the story of Jesus was passed down the followers of the early religeon were adament that it was true and when they put it down in words they said it was fact (how much fact we can debate). Now the Gnostics thought it was just metaphore and decided to write gospels of their own but those are not part of the bible. And the Mohammed came and began his journey and said that his words were the truth. Now much of the bible is paradoxical and contradictory depending on how you interpret it and it conflicts with the Talmud and the Koran but I happen to see the paradox as a form of evidence and the contradiction and and conflict as unavoidable when you are talking about a very old idea. Hell books on scientific hypothesis cantradict one another as do history texts. And then you have the Eastern Religeons Hindu, Buddhism, Confucianism, Shinto. The Hindu's purported their ideas as non-ficion as did all the rest. And this is why fantasy will be viewed different even in the future: Those who wrote it and the majority who read it view it as fiction, where as the bibles of the world are viewed as non-fiction.

[Gary Wassner]

So if I write a fantasy epic and I tell people that this is not fantasy but a reality that I have witnessed and that I can vouch for, is there a chance that it could be viewed as such sometime in the future? What if I organize a cult following around me and they all start to believe what I have said? My father died of a brain tumor, and he was unable to speak for almost a year after he had surgery to remove it. The moment before he died, he spoke. Was it a miracle? Could he be one of my characters?

[kongming]

I never said they were wrong. They are right too. God revealed himself in the person of Siddhartha the Buddha, to Constantine as a Sun God, to The Japanese as Jimmu, to the Chinese as Heaven, to the Hindus as their gods, to the Mongol/Turkic peoples as their gods, to the Celts as theirs, to the Plains Indians as theirs, to the Greeks as the Gods of Olympus, to the Norse as Valhalla, to the Arabs and later the Turkic/Arab/Africans as Mohammed, to the Jews as Abraham/Noah/Moses, to Newton as science and science and math, to Einstein as E=MC2, and if there are aliens as their beliefs.

It's not that God needs to do this but it is recognized that it would be difficult to accept a faith that is alien to one's culture. I see it as a gift so it's not TOO hard to have faith.

And I don't think that Buddhism and Hindu are older than Judaism. And Buddhism only came to China around 200 AD so I'm assuming it is not older than Christianity and from what I understand Hinduism was not the orriginal religeon of India but became so much later, I don't know the exact time but I'm pretty sure it was after the fall of Rome. But it doesn't really matter which are older, I'm assuming Judaism is the oldest surviving religeon, Shinto could be older and Confucianism could be too.

And I believe there are a billion Christians and Muslims too. I don't know that there are a billion buddhists. I think there are more Confucians in China than Buddhists, but then I guess the rest of the Asiatic nations pick up the slack, but they too are Confucian/Buddhist and there is a high number of Muslims Christians and Jews among them too.

kongming, here's a direct question for you.

With a bilion budists and a billion hindus (all with religions older than Christianity, Jewish, etc. I realize I'm estimating here.) what makes 'God' more right than the others? Christians are far outweighed by other 'heathen' religions. So what makes God right and the others wrong?

[JRMurdock]

That's how the Mormon religion got started. Smith had an Egyptian slab with hieroglyphics on it. He translated those to be the book of Mormon and said it was God's 'new' words. He also claimed to speak to God on a regular basis. That tablet has since been translated to be so far away from the book of Mormon to be hysterical. But don't tell a Mormon their religion is based on a 'slab' of lies. Oh no!

Then you also have L. Ron Hubbard. A Sci-Fi Writer. He started his own religion. In fact, his office in LAS VEGAS of all places is kept tin pristine condition awaiting his 'return'.

So to answer your question, yes. You too could write a book, claim it's truth, and find someone to follow you. Is this a good thing? No! Is this a violation of 'good'. Absolutely.

People on a whole are looking for answers and are willing to turn a blind eye to rationality in order to get the answer they're looking for. That's sad.

Science, as has been discussed, is not a religion, but a practice. You must take certain items on 'faith' (such as the fact that atoms exist, etc) but those things have been proven again and again. Those can be re-proven if needed.

Religion has proven nothing. Will never prove anything. Can never prove anything. Why? Everything EVERYTHING must be taken on faith. That's a large pill to swallow. Yet time and again people take it and believe. I'm amazed that new religions keep popping up and people follow. Usually out of 'well my mum and dad did it, so it must be the 'right' thing to do.'

I'm not damning religion. For some people it's needed to explain the unexplainable. For others it's needed to justify their actions or inactions. And still others there's a need for something after.

So where does that leave us? Still looking for answers to questions that have been around for thousands of years. And will those questions ever get answered? Probably not.

[kongming]

I suppose all that could happen. And I don't know that your father speaking WASN'T a miracle. If his words made you cry then I would say that it was a miracle.

You don't really want to start a religeon do you?

So if I write a fantasy epic and I tell people that this is not fantasy but a reality that I have witnessed and that I can vouch for, is there a chance that it could be viewed as such sometime in the future? What if I organize a cult following around me and they all start to believe what I have said? My father died of a brain tumor, and he was unable to speak for almost a year after he had surgery to remove it. The moment before he died, he spoke. Was it a miracle? Could he be one of my characters?