[JRMurdock]

So Kongming, I need to understand this. Everyone is right? If that's the case, why do Christians feel so driven to 'convert' people? Why have so many religious wars been fought in the name of God if everyone who's ever made up a god was right? And why have so many given up on their 'gods'? Do those gods of old still exist today? Methinks you read American Gods. :)

If everyone is right (Budists don't belive in any God or Gods. Man is just man and must find peace), who's wrong? Can I create my own God and claim he's the one true god above gods?

[kongming]

write it. I would never presume to create a religeon, because as stated above I don't see the point, and also I don't have all the answers and I don't expect God to zap them into my head anytime soon so anything I wrote for the most part would be sepculation. I do want to write a work of philosophy though.

That's how the Mormon religion got started. Smith had an Egyptian slab with hieroglyphics on it. He translated those to be the book of Mormon and said it was God's 'new' words. He also claimed to speak to God on a regular basis. That tablet has since been translated to be so far away from the book of Mormon to be hysterical. But don't tell a Mormon their religion is based on a 'slab' of lies. Oh no!
Then you also have L. Ron Hubbard. A Sci-Fi Writer. He started his own religion. In fact, his office in LAS VEGAS of all places is kept tin pristine condition awaiting his 'return'.
So to answer your question, yes. You too could write a book, claim it's truth, and find someone to follow you. Is this a good thing? No! Is this a violation of 'good'. Absolutely.


Science has proven nothing either. It's hypothesis which are purported as Theories (and so far luckily science has not called something fact) are based almost solely on circumstancial evidence. What actually has occured is that what you are saying is proven actually only has evidence to support. It has been re-evidenced, but to use the feather and the bowliing ball idea you'd have to drop them an infinate number of times to actually PROVE the idea. And remember I'm NOT saying science is wrong. I believe a great deal of the Hypothesis of science and I think it has helped a great deal, I'm just worried that the science community will someday become like the various churches were in the 500-1600's if we keep saying that science has the only answers. There are answers everywhere. There may be something even BETTER than science or religeon, and I have no idea what that is but I'm betting its a combination of the two.

Science, as has been discussed, is not a religion, but a practice. You must take certain items on 'faith' (such as the fact that atoms exist, etc) but those things have been proven again and again. Those can be re-proven if needed.
Religion has proven nothing. Will never prove anything. Can never prove anything. Why? Everything EVERYTHING must be taken on faith. That's a large pill to swallow. Yet time and again people take it and believe. I'm amazed that new religions keep popping up and people follow. Usually out of 'well my mum and dad did it, so it must be the 'right' thing to do.'

[Gary Wassner]

Not in the slightest. There are more than enough religions out there today.

My father speaking was most definitely not a miracle. At least it wasn't to me. He spoke. That's all. But to someone else, they could have documented it and passed the experience down, and it could have become one. Who knows? The ironic part is that my father was not exactly the saintly type. Hey, he made me cry many many times. That was no miracle, believe me.

Maus is right, you know. Not everyone can be correct. The fathers of the Church might not agree with you. For Jews, God did not have a son and the worshipping of saints is idolatry. Go figure...

[kongming]

No everyone is NOT right. The universe has truths of its own and regardless what we think they are they just are. I'll use a basic example and I'm not saying that this example is an actual truth but just a way to show you what I mean:

if the Universe has decided that 1+1=2 then us saying 1+1=2 does not make it right, it already was. Conversely if we all decide unanimously that 1+1=3 that doesn't make it right and 1+1=2 and we are all of us wrong.

What I'm saying is that the basics of every major religeon have a ring of truth to them, as much as my own does. And I mean these ones:
Confuscianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Shitoism and Judaism. Because I know enough about them to say that. As for the rest I don't know enough so I can't say yes or no.

As for those old gods existing today... they were already part of the fabric of God. If s/he can make a son and a spirit and make himself three in one then why can't s/he be a pantheon or several at the same time?

You could create your own god, but would you really believe it? And would your belief in god help you to make this world better?

So Kongming, I need to understand this. Everyone is right? If that's the case, why do Christians feel so driven to 'convert' people? Why have so many religious wars been fought in the name of God if everyone who's ever made up a god was right? And why have so many given up on their 'gods'? Do those gods of old still exist today? Methinks you read American Gods. :)

If everyone is right (Budists don't belive in any God or Gods. Man is just man and must find peace), who's wrong? Can I create my own God and claim he's the one true god above gods?

[kongming]

I just meant that if you wanted to say it was a miracle I would be inclined to believe you.

I didn't say everyone can be correct. I meant that the basis of those religeons are truthful. And God manifested in those ways. It's not such a stretch, if a woman in bethlehem gave birth to God then why can't have been the God that he became? Or why can't Jimmu also be a son of God? Or why can't heaven's will determined who would be emperor of China based on how they treated the people?

As I said I like paradox and contradiction, it's one thing that science can't handle.

Not in the slightest. There are more than enough religions out there today.

My father speaking was most definitely not a miracle. At least it wasn't to me. He spoke. That's all. But to someone else, they could have documented it and passed the experience down, and it could have become one. Who knows? The ironic part is that my father was not exactly the saintly type. Hey, he made me cry many many times. That was no miracle, believe me.

Maus is right, you know. Not everyone can be correct. The fathers of the Church might not agree with you. For Jews, God did not have a son and the worshipping of saints is idolatry. Go figure...

[JRMurdock]

So the internal combustion engine, electricity, glasses (and contact lenses) are all myths to you? Is concrete a mystery that cannot be explained where you come from? I'm curious that if science cannot prove anything, how to you explain the computer you're typing on? Did God suddenly will it into being?

Sorry for the heavily sarchastic overtone there.

Science does have a lot of theories, but they have proven a lot. If they hadn't we'd still be walking around in robes and using our hands to get our food out of the ground. If it weren't for science, navagation via the ships that brought us to the new world would never have happened.

And my father is American Indian. He was raised on a reservation. He things the 'old ones' are nuts and left as soon as he was 15 (the legal age at the time to strike out on your own). He's been a devout atheist ever since. So my father speaking is most definately not a miracle.

My step-father could make me cry with his words. That also was not a miracle. He was an ass who liked to belittle people and mostly kids. Does that make him saintly? Does that make him right?

As for making a religion, it's possible, but that doesn't make the person right. Look at the Bakers. They re-wrote the Bible to suit their own needs. Did that make them right? They said 'God said we needed a million dollars or we'll die'. Does that make him right or a liar? Where did the line get drawn to say if your religion didn't exist before this point in history, it's not a real religion? And why would such a line ever get drawn?

I still question, who is wrong and why? Who is right and why? What makes one religion more right that another other than personal preference?

Hey Kongming, sorry if it feels like we're ganging up on you. :) This is a touchy topic.

[Gary Wassner]

What all of this is demonstrating is how immune to reason faith can be. That is not a criticism of you, but of faith, Kong. Your attitude is refreshing in its openness, but frustrating in its conviction. As I said in the very very beginning of this conversation, and i will repeat it once again, if we accept that scripture is hisorical fact and that the events happened in real life, then anything at all is possible. ANYTHING. And we don't need science any longer to help us find answers because they could all change tomorrow anyway. And we shouldn't rely upon the past to provide us with hints as to what today might bring, because there are no laws of nature that apply. The sky could fall as easily and as likely as it could remain above us. My family could die an be resurrected, so why should I worry? And when it's all over, if I am good, I can live forever. Or is that if I am bad I will be punished by having to live forever? Chaos rules and patterns are arbitrary. What a mad and frightening world religion has created for us!

[kongming]

I never said those things were myths. I believe in the hypothesis that science put forward for how they work. I have no reason to think otherwise.

Are you really suggesting that religeon should even try to use a faith based tool to explain how these work? For God sakes why? Why? Oh, dear why?

I don't think that religeous people need their priests, monks, rabbis, shamans, bibles, talmuds or korans telling them how or why concrete works.

And don't worry sarcasm is an effective tool of communication.

So the internal combustion engine, electricity, glasses (and contact lenses) are all myths to you? Is concrete a mystery that cannot be explained where you come from? I'm curious that if science cannot prove anything, how to you explain the computer you're typing on? Did God suddenly will it into being?

Sorry for the heavily sarchastic overtone there.


Science does have a lot of theories, but they have proven a lot. If they hadn't we'd still be walking around in robes and using our hands to get our food out of the ground. If it weren't for science, navagation via the ships that brought us to the new world would never have happened.

Science may have some theories but for the most part what they call theories are actually just hypothesis. They're really good hypothesis and for the most part we don't need them to be fully worked out to get by in daily life.

And my father is American Indian. He was raised on a reservation. He things the 'old ones' are nuts and left as soon as he was 15 (the legal age at the time to strike out on your own). He's been a devout atheist ever since. So my father speaking is most definately not a miracle.

My step-father could make me cry with his words. That also was not a miracle. He was an ass who liked to belittle people and mostly kids. Does that make him saintly? Does that make him right?

I was talking about Gary's dad as a response to his question. I never said that it was a miracle that all our dad's can talk. I suspect that he was trying to trap me with some logic but underestimated my paradoxical way of looking at the universe :P


I still question, who is wrong and why? Who is right and why? What makes one religion more right that another other than personal preference?

Hey Kongming, sorry if it feels like we're ganging up on you. :) This is a touchy topic.

I'm sorry Maus I don't have the definitive answer for that question. I do know that EVERYTHING is possible but not everything is probable. I think everyone here is intelligent to figure out even the basic truths of right and wrong how they apply to them.

And don't worry about ganging up on me I'm used to being the Bruce Lee of controversy.

I'm just glad I can finally discuss this stuf on here.

[kongming]

Why can't some parts of scripture be history and other parts be misinterpreted or mis-edited?

And I think everything IS possible. I just don't think everything is probable. (I know I said that before, but I really like to stress that). I mean I can't think of anything that is not possible.

And why wouldn't we need science? Science can still create alot of stuff for us and show how to make more things possible for us. And I don't see why we would ignore the past becuase everything is possible, that just makes for an interesting future when we one day tap into the power of the universe.

And this anything is possible is a human perception problem. Once we have all the answers to all the questions the Universe will have shown was is and is not possible. But for now we don't know for sure what is and is not so for now EVERYTHING is.

And yes all those things you mention possibly could happen. But I think probably not.

As for the afterlife I like the Tom Harper idea I gave before.

What all of this is demonstrating is how immune to reason faith can be. That is not a criticism of you, but of faith, Kong. Your attitude is refreshing in its openness, but frustrating in its conviction. As I said in the very very beginning of this conversation, and i will repeat it once again, if we accept that scripture is hisorical fact and that the events happened in real life, then anything at all is possible. ANYTHING. And we don't need science any longer to help us find answers because they could all change tomorrow anyway. And we shouldn't rely upon the past to provide us with hints as to what today might bring, because there are no laws of nature that apply. The sky could fall as easily and as likely as it could remain above us. My family could die an be resurrected, so why should I worry? And when it's all over, if I am good, I can live forever. Or is that if I am bad I will be punished by having to live forever? Chaos rules and patterns are arbitrary. What a mad and frightening world religion has created for us!

[JRMurdock]

It's nice that this conversation is maintaining its light tone. :)

Anyway. I just want to make sure I understand this: You're saying that just because science says if you put a spark to gasoline mist it will explode and drive a piston downward that this is a theory that cannot be proven? Actually it's not even up to theory status in your view by only a hypothesis? If that is the case, I need to understand something. How has society advanced if nothing science 'claims' to be true can be proven?

If science has proven nothing, and religion has proven nothing, and all things must be taken on 'faith' where does that leave us as a society? They say seeing is believing. I've seen a lot through science. I've never seen God. Why does he choose to hide? Why does the Bible claim he was there for the first couple thousand of years and suddenly disappeared and has nothing to do with his 'children' anymore? God claimed in the Bible (through Jesus) that once he was gone, there would be no further proof of his existence. All things must be taken on faith. This would mean that a 'miracle' would disprove that statement. That would make God a liar. That would make him fallible. That would make him human. If God is human, he's not a God.