[Erfael]

I also don't believe in this, but I also don't believe in the sanctification of all cultures ie some deserve to be mutiliated.


Okay. I have to ask. Which cultures on this planet "deserve to be mutilated"?

[Gary Wassner]

Deserve to be mutilated? Whoa.

We might find some cultures particularly barbaric, but barbarism as a response to barbarism kind of negates the perspective.

[RAD]

Oh, I certainly degree that some cultures deserve to be mutilated.

The pre-Enlightenment Medieval Christian monarchies where kings ruled by divine right, for instance, thoroughly deserved it. Along with the Islamic theocracies where a middle-ages mind-set is prevalent. The Russian feudal system and the communist regime isn't exactly religion, but I'd toss that in there too.

Understand, they deserve to be mutilated not because of their beliefs, but because they were they were and are quite intent on mutilating freethinkers and non-Christians/Islamics/communists of every stripe.

I found the Christian Inquisition particularly barbaric. I also find the fundamentalist Mormon divinely-inspired practice of polygamy (often with girls as young as 12 years old) highly barbaric.

[RAD]

I also don't believe in this, but I also don't believe in the sanctification of all cultures ie some deserve to be mutiliated.

Also, the use of the word 'sanctify' implies moral authority. I don't accept that God or Christianity (or Islam, etc.) has the moral right to sanctify or condemn any belief system because, since God is concerned solely with blind, unquestioning obedience to Himself, He is essentially amoral.

[Radone]

Oh, I certainly degree that some cultures deserve to be mutilated.

The pre-Enlightenment Medieval Christian monarchies where kings ruled by divine right, for instance, thoroughly deserved it. Along with the Islamic theocracies where a middle-ages mind-set is prevalent. The Russian feudal system and the communist regime isn't exactly religion, but I'd toss that in there too.

Understand, they deserve to be mutilated not because of their beliefs, but because they were they were and are quite intent on mutilating freethinkers and non-Christians/Islamics/communists of every stripe.

I found the Christian Inquisition particularly barbaric. I also find the fundamentalist Mormon divinely-inspired practice of polygamy (often with girls as young as 12 years old) highly barbaric.

RAD got to it first, but I'd throw in Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. One could also point out aspects of cultures that should be mutiliated: slave trading, the caste system of India, the thousand year-long tradition of foot-binding of China.

[Radone]

Also, the use of the word 'sanctify' implies moral authority. I don't accept that God or Christianity (or Islam, etc.) has the moral right to sanctify or condemn any belief system because, since God is concerned solely with blind, unquestioning obedience to Himself, He is essentially amoral.

How is it that you are certain as to the nature of God's thoughts and reasoning. That alone would constitute a miracle of the highest order.

[RAD]

RAD got to it first, but I'd throw in Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. One could also point out aspects of cultures that should be mutiliated: slave trading, the caste system of India, the thousand year-long tradition of foot-binding of China.

I completely agree.

After the brutality in question is halted, however, the issue is who has the right, for what reason, and if and whether that culture can grow and change into one that values life and freedom, or if it must be replaced by another culture, and if that replacing culture is actually superior.

[RAD]

How is it that you are certain as to the nature of God's thoughts and reasoning. That alone would constitute a miracle of the highest order

I've spoken to His servants and messangers, listened closely to what they've preached, read their books and pamphlets, looked at their Web sites and read as much scripture as I could stomach. I have also taken a good, long look at history.

How is it that the prophets were so certain of God's thoughts and reasoning? They knew only what they were told.

[Gary Wassner]

I think the contention is the choice of the word 'mutilated' to describe your anger and abhorence of these systems/religions/gov'ts/beliefs. It's the holier than thou attitudes that allowed so much of this to go on to begin with. I'm not saying turn the other cheek. But mutilate?

[Nevyn]

I've spoken to His servants and messangers, listened closely to what they've preached, read their books and pamphlets, looked at their Web sites and read as much scripture as I could stomach. I have also taken a good, long look at history.
I'm sorry RAD but if you did listen closely "to what they preached", then I can't even begin to see how you arrived at the following!!And ever heard of the asthetic principle... the idea that as we can percieve beauty we must have been created by God, as there is no need to recognise beauty in everyday survival... i.e. animals dont recognise beauty.

There are many different kinds of beauty. I find some things beautiful that others don't. Some things we see as beautiful, simply because we are taught to recognize certain shapes and patterns as such.

What sort of God is it that you don't believe in?

I don't believe in a God that finds my flesh hateful and decrees that we must be broken and beaten into the dirt before we can crawl into His Presence.

I don't believe in a God who requires that I hate myself before I can love Him.

I don't believe in a God who divides all the peoples in the world into either enemeis or slaves.

I don't believe in a God that says I don't own my own body, and so that body can be tortured by the righteous in the interest of saving my soul.

I don't believe in a God that's seperate and independent from this world and who says that the beauty of the world around us is just a distraction from His straight and narrow path to some idealized better, place, that our purpose in life is simply to die believing a certain way and getting as many other people to believe that way as well, not to learn, explore, grow and help each other do the same.

I don't believe in a God who commands us to ignore any bit of imperical evidence that contradicts His revealed scripture, since He only placed that evidence in our path in order to test our faith.

I don't believe in a God who hovers over me, waiting for me to think a naughty thought so He can gleefully smite me (at least, not anymore I don't).

I don't believe in a God who decrees submission to authority as the highest virtue and so who is, for all intents and purposes, amoral.

I don't believe in a God who preaches exclusion and proclaims one group of people as chosen, special and saved for their beliefs regardless of their actions.

I don't believe in a God who sends his evangelical minions to gut and mutilate every culture they encounter, strip their native legends of their truth and meaning, group the very worst aspects of that culture with the satanic or occult (which is the name we give to the repository for all those superstitions a monotheistic religion is unable to cannabalize) and keep the rest as ornaments for His own religion.

I don't believe in a God who says that all the values and virtues necessary for a happy, meaningful life belong to Him and claims these qualities can only be attained by submitting to His chosen prophets.

That's the sort of God I don't believe in.

Or rather, I don't believe in that Being's revelations, because revealed knowledge can't be questioned confirmed or verified. If the Being that spoke to those prophets was real (hey, anything's possible), then I don't rule out the possibility that that Being can lie.

Perhaps He didn't create the world and us. Perhaps He invaded the world and seeks only to control us. If God's existance is possible, then so is that scenario.