[Alassė]

you cant argue someone into the Kingdom of God

Or out of it, apparently.

Oh sorry, didnt realise you were trying. :D

The jinx comment was about how those people who feel they are "chosen" by God, generally seem to suffer for their faith and I mean Jews, Christians, Muslims, Pagans alike.


Is it that they are more willing to suffer? Or does their faith cause them to suffer?

Nev, a serious question. Think about it carefully before you answer, okay?

If you had been born in Afghanistan or Iran, Morocco or Turkey, or Dubai or Iraq, do you think you would believe in the Christian God? And if not, would you be lost forever? Could another God suffice? Another belief system? Is it your God or your need to believe that drives you?

I know you werent asking me, but i thought i might be allowed to give an idea as well. God will not condemn someone who has never heard of him. That is unfair. How can you believe in someone you were never given the chance to believe in?

I'm going to mention something in the Last Battle (by C.S. Lewis) one of the people believed they were faithfully and truly serving Tash, as such they did not know of Aslan and so didnt serve him. But because he believed that he ws serving God faithfully he still got into heaven. I dont knwo how true this is, but it is a possibility.

I am able to believe because i have heard, i would trust in God that if i were in another country he would have also given me the opportunity to believe.

Faith is all we know and all we believe on a subjective level.

Is not everything subjective?

Hostile toward God? Yes indeed. At least, toward the revealed God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and Joseph Smith.

Are they all the same God?

Oh and off-hand, does anyone know what has happened to Maus??

Shalom
Alassë

[kahnovitch]

Is it that they are more willing to suffer? Or does their faith cause them to suffer?

You'd have to ask them that, but if you want my opinion they suffer from the prejudicial treatment of other people from other faiths.
Religion (or the misuse/misrepresentation of it) gives us yet another reason to hate and kill each other.
Christians suffered under paganism e.g Ancient Rome.
Pagans suffered from other pagans e.g. the Roman slaughter of druids at the beginning of the conquest of "Briton".
And eventually pagans suffered under christianity for which I can also cite ancient Rome as an example just to show the fickle nature of religion and man.

A host of indiginous religions suffered under christianity e.g. virtually every country that became part of the British Empire from North America to Africa and China.

God will not condemn someone who has never heard of him. That is unfair. How can you believe in someone you were never given the chance to believe in?

Who has not heard of God or at least A God or Gods of some description?

Gods have been worshippen long before organised religion as we know it ever existed.
Plus there we go second guessing a being of unlimited power. "God would/would not do such and such because it is unfair"

To believe we have the power to comprehend the thought processes of such a being is, at least in my mind, and insult to said being.

Also why should God be good or bad or even fair?
Why not indifferent?
A lot goes on in the world that can be considered evil and there is much of what we consider needless suffering that occurs to many people.

If God is good, perfect divine etc, why does God allow this?

The general answer is; "God moves in mysterious ways".

Translation; "We don't have a bloody clue!"

The inexplicable nature of a God automatically exempts it from all criticism.

Isn't that handy!

[Alassė]

Who has not heard of God or at least A God or Gods of some description?


Not everybody knows my God. Some Muslims or Sikhs or Buddists or Hindus may never have heard of the Christian God. I have heaard of these Gods and i have chosen what i believe to be the truth. I cant talk for other people, but i believe that my God would not condemn those who havent heard of him because of where they live or the time that they lived in.


To believe we have the power to comprehend the thought processes of such a being is, at least in my mind, and insult to said being.


I cant comprehend him more than my Brain allows, which is tiny compared to God, at least i know that i dont udnderstand God and wont until i die or maybe forever. Im not bothered that i dont understand his thought processes, i'm just glad that he loves me.

A lot goes on in the world that can be considered evil and there is much of what we consider needless suffering that occurs to many people.


Not sure if this will help but i'll try it anyway. I have always had a problem with the suffering of the world. I know that God could stop it, but he doesnt always, maybe there is a purpose to it i dont yet understand. But i do know that if i had not suffered i would not be the same person that i am todya, and honestly i quite like who i am. I do thank God for my suffering it makes me stronger and strengthens me.

As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. "Teacher," his disciples asked him, "why was this man born blind? Was it a result of his own sins or those of his parents?" "It was not because of his sins or his parents' sins," Jesus answered. "He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him." John 9:1-4

Personally i find this particularly comforting as i have a brother who was born disabled. But i also must say that even though it may seem that he is less of a person,I wouldnt change him for the world (even when he annoys me). I would rather have my disabled brother than a normal one, and i could never imagine him being normal and im not sure i'd want to.

God Bless
Alassë

[kahnovitch]

Not everybody knows my God. Some Muslims or Sikhs or Buddists or Hindus may never have heard of the Christian God.

The problem is lass, that how do you know that your God and their's is not the one and same, only interpreted differently by each culture?

Have you ever indulged to read scripture other than your own Bible?

If there is a God, then why should any particular religion hold the monopoly on God's wisdom or love?

Im not bothered that i dont understand his thought processes, i'm just glad that he loves me.

Surely you hope that God loves you as after all you yourself admit..

I cant comprehend him more than my Brain allows, which is tiny compared to God, at least i know that i dont udnderstand God and wont until i die or maybe forever

There are a lot of assumptions that believers/followers make about God whilst at the same time prostrating themselves in adoration before God, which I find quite ironic.

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34)

[JRMurdock]

Deserve to be mutilated? Whoa.

We might find some cultures particularly barbaric, but barbarism as a response to barbarism kind of negates the perspective.

I've been out of the conversation for a LONG time with good reason, but babies are mutilated each and every day in almost every country in the world. It all started in the name of god by circumsising children. Cutting off the most sensitive part of the male anotomy at birth. THAT'S mutilation of the cruelist kind and it's done to nearly 70% of all males born in the U.S.

I ask, do children deserve to be mutilated?

[JRMurdock]

But see Gary that's your take on it, or is it? Who are you influenced by? No need to answer because you already told us.
How do I know? Read the Bible, it's all in black and white;)

Nevyn, the problem I have with this comment is simple, how do you KNOW that the words written 4000-5000 years ago are right? Many other religions existed prior and in conjunction to the 'Word of God' and all those religions were stammped out and brutalized with 'Believe in our God or we'll kill you' that those have all become mythology and 'quaint'. So why is one mythology right and all others wrong when they all sprang up at the same time?

All mythology is written in black and white. How do you choose? Is the winner always right?

[Dawnstorm]

All mythology is written in black and white. How do you choose? Is the winner always right?

Actually, much is oral tradition. Dreamtime, for example.

What extra authority comes from writing it down?

[JRMurdock]

By that same token, Homer was right.

What extra credit is a story given just because a person claimed to speak to a God or gods? Homer spoke with the gods. Why is he wrong?

[JRMurdock]

I know you werent asking me, but i thought i might be allowed to give an idea as well. God will not condemn someone who has never heard of him. That is unfair. How can you believe in someone you were never given the chance to believe in?

This is contradictory to what others have said on the board. To me, the biggest problem with any religion is that NO ONE EVER AGREES! Even those of faith have their own beliefs that make religion personal and once it's personalized, it's bulletproof. Eveidence has no meaning anymore because a person has been 'touched by God' and there's nothing more personal than that. What's in the good book and what's not no longer makes any difference.

My Mom, a good Lutheran all her life, reads tarot cards and belives in re-incarnation. She reads the same bible ya'all do, but finds many points to question.

Never in all of reigious history has there been a direct front where everyone agrees. NEVER!

As for Constatine, he didn't write the bible, but he preceeded over the editing of the book and who the 'messiah' was (choosing Jesus over Apollonious because they were doing away with Apollo as a 'god') and what book to include to put their view forward.

WHy don't Christians EVER ask why only 2 dicipiles have books in the bible? Paul wasn't made a discipile until after he saw Jesus rise from the dead. So that means 11 Dicipiles who ALL WROTE gospel and Mary Magdalane who first saw Jesus rise from the dead all had their gospels edited out of the bible despite their being taught in Churches up until an edited bible was presented.

Why doesn't that bother ANY Christian? To me, the uncovering of the book of Judas and it's excludion from the bible should send up red flags and have Christians running to their preachers for an explanation. How can you take a book that excluded 11/12th of the diciples gospels and say it's accurate and 100% true? Why are the other 11 dicipiles gospel not there? Why were they wrong? Why don't you, as a Christian claiming to want to be closer to God not want the Church to come forward with these documents?

[RAD]

It's all there in black and white

Is it?

Is it really?

Consider the creation story of Hellenic mythology. In the beginning there was Gaia and Uranus, Mother Earth and Father Sky, the first human analogy of the creator. They remain in balance until Uranus becomes jealous of his power and assumes more authority, even oppressing his own children until Cronos rebells and overthows his father.

But Cronos then proceeds to repeat his father's oppressive reign until his son, Zeus, overthrows him and promptly institutes yet another authority-based system of imposing tyrannous will over creation.

The original image (Gaia and Uranus figures as the creator) has its parrellel in most belief systems. In the most violently successful civilizations, though, there is the belief in the supremacy of one over the other.

Now, compare this to the story of Genesis. God doesn't cast us out of Eden because of the sin of disobedience, but because He's afraid we might eat the Fruit of Immortality and become powerful enough to overthrow Him. When you think about it, the God of the scriptures is not that different from Zeus, Cronos and Uranus.

Furthermore, recall that the power of knowledge and immortality resided not in the Person of God, but in the Tree, which sprang from the Earth. God (Father Sky), however, has assumed His supremacy over the Earth (His female counterpart) and has taken all credit for and authority over creation for Himself.

This is illustrated when God tells Adam to subdue the Earth (to tread it/Her underfoot, as some interpretations have it). Man is given dominion over woman and the Earth (and the two are often seen as interconnected in ancient cultures) so long as he remains subserviant to his position under the Father.

I submit that God's sin of assuming supremacy and passing those attitudes on to His children, and not man's sin of disobediance, was the true Fall.

A true-believing Christian would disagree, but why?

Why is my interpretation of Genesis and the Fall incorrect?

Because I apply story in a pagan context? Evangelists have done that for thousands of years. It seems fine when it's done to justify Christianity and make it easier for folks to accept.

Because the story makes no specific mention of a female counterpart to God? But the story is supposedly revealed directly to the prophets, by God. They have only His word to go on. Who is there to corroberate the tale? Who's to say God didn't work some spin-doctoring to give himself credit?

You can't offer any rebuttle that isn't an appeal to authority, thus revealing the truth: monotheism is simply the worship of power. Since the monotheistic faiths hold that whatever God does is right simply because He does it, then you must admit that God is amoral.