[Michael2000]

Thanks, Archren. I definitely do not think of myself as an "absolutist."

Scott: Yes, there are many things I wish not to believe and cannot seem to come to terms with. About life and death, about humanity, about suffering. I am constantly confronted with overwhelming evidence about all of these things that convinces me they are real.

But this is precisely why I want to believe in something "more" and I look for "more" in science and in my heart.

And I want that something to be love. I find that I really can't live without it, whether or not I can know for sure that it is right or wrong.

[Gary Wassner]

I second that Holbrook. And Michael, in their recognition that they are 'equally bad' many have a very strong sense of being 'equally' better.

I spent the better part of the day doing things I thought I wanted to, but it turned out that I really didn't at all.

I missed three pages of posts!

"I don't even want to believe that God is likely a pipe-dream."

That's where you and I differ, Scott. I do. I would much rather live in this smaller world and feel responsible in it, than in that larger, scarier, out of control world.

[Michael2000]

I second that Holbrook. And Michael, in their recognition that they are 'equally bad' many have a very strong sense of being 'equally' better.

Yes, that's true. I've seen it in action.

[Scott Bakker]

But who decides what things are the 'right things' to be absolutely certain of? Remember, once certainty becomes absolute, then the beliefs at issue are no longer open to debate. Think of what happened to Marx's highminded goals.

In a strange sense I think I'm both more optimistic than you and more pessimistic than you on this issue, Archren. In one sense, I simply don't think we humans are qualified to be absolutely certain of anything, that as soon as we open that door, no matter how high-minded, we increase the chance that ugly consequences can arise. And on the other hand I think it is possible that we can still throw ourselves behind laudatory courses of action while maintaining a modicum of doubt.

But you could be right. Perhaps absolute certainty is what it takes to motivate the Mother Theresa's of the world. I want to believe otherwise! ;)

But this is precisely why I want to believe in something "more" and I look for "more" in science and in my heart.


I'm right there with you Michael.

I know you said you studied philosophy, but do you teach, Scott? I like the way you provoke me to think about what I'm saying.

I did teach until recently, thus all the crafty questions ;) . Now I write fulltime, thus the endless stream of pompous verbiage :D

[Michael2000]

But who decides what things are the 'right things' to be absolutely certain of? Remember, once certainty becomes absolute, then the beliefs at issue are no longer open to debate.

Absolutely. Pun defintely intended. :D

[Gary Wassner]

Certainty is just a word, isn't it? Are there absolutes in nature that correspond to our descriptions of them? We are uncertain always. It is the nature of interaction and perception. But what is so important about certainty? It's our desire for certainty that leads us to belief in the end. We make that leap because we feel we need to be certain of at least some things, and since we can't, we jump. The concept drives us relentlessly, nothing else; certainty in our choices, certainty in our love, certainty in our understanding of good and evil, good and bad, certainty in our belief that our lives have meaning beyond the mundane aspects, certainty that tomorrow will come, certainty that the sun will rise, We are slaves to this desire for certainty, when in fact we really don't need it at all. There is no certainty about anything, and yet we function, make decisions, experience happiness, joy, satisfaction, sadness, ecstasy. Why are we so determined that it's necessary? Take responsiblity for your own actions within your own life-context and try to make the best decisions possible considering the contingencies. If you always need to be certain you are correct, then you will always be frustrated. Or you will be a believer of one sort or another - one who precipitates another Cultural Revolution, anothe purging of unhealthy gene pools, another crusade to rid the world of heathens. We are plagued not by sin but by certainty.

[Michael2000]

If there's anything at all I might say I'm "certain" of, it's that there are people I care for very much. I cherish the bonds we have and I hope that they do to.

[Archren]

So I take it that neither Scott nor Gary has anything to say about my idea that "Absolute Certainty" is a strawman that isn't actually experienced by sane human beings? That most of us seem to experience only that degree of certainty that help us get through the day and that Scott & Gary have no problem with?

[Gary Wassner]

Archen, my point was that it's just a word, a word that someone made up at some point or other. Is it a thing out there in the world. Can you walk up to an object and say, "Oh, so that's what certainty is,"? I am certain that certain things hurt me and certain things make me feel good. But sometimes, like when I am at the dentist and he's drilling my teeth after giving me gas, I am not so certain anymore. Functionally, I can be 'certain' of enough to get by, but is 'certain' perhaps the misleading term here?

[Nevyn]

Or are you pointing out that absolute conviction can often be a 'force for good'? Perhaps it can, but the fact is, those with absolute conviction will never be able to know, because they will be incapable of questioning and testing their convictions. That's the problem. Conviction shuts down alternatives, doubt opens them up, wouldn't you agree? Lucky for us scary fundamentalist's this is only an opinion and not even close to the truth . Have you considered that in fact doubt may be the underlying cause of atrocity .