[alison]

Ooo, that's going in my quote file, Alison. Or possibly posted over my desk.

Why, thanks KatG!

A lot of times, an editor, like less experienced readers, will spot a problem but mistake the cause of it -- this spot feels flat, I think it needs faster pacing -- when actually it's flat because there's not enough of the main character's pov or something -- and then you get to play detective to work that out. But unless the author is the person who does that, it's not usually going to work out in revision. An editor may indeed be a writer-thinking reader, but the writer is the one who has to write the thing. And if that writing porocess involves going to ground in a cave and keeping everyone out, so be it.

I think that's true, and a wise editor knows it. I had one who was good at spotting problems, but her solutions were terrible. But they were there to make me think of something myself; as I remember, sometimes my solutions were more radical than her suggestions. A really gifted and experienced editor can somehow open your eyes to a book without interfering with it.

Here in Australia, editing is one of the areas of publishing that has been hugely cut over the past decade or so; publishers spend much less tme than they once did preparing a book, and invest much less in training or developing relationships between editors and writers (and it is a relationship, with all the concomitant pitfalls and rewards). The lack of editing skills is now perceived as a big problem within the publishing industry as a whole - and no wonder - it means that books are rushed out before they're ready and, especially for new writers, that can be disastrous. Also, I've learned so much about writing from good editing that I think that it can't but be harmful to a writer's development not to have this kind of close relationship in the making of a book. Is this erosion of an editing culture the case elsewhere?

I am being talkative; I hope, Caitlin, that you're not exploding too much over there. For some reason, I get rather excited about editing.

[alison]

You're fabulous, dahling! I adore anyone who can match my loquacity, whether written or verbal. I don't think I'm giving an accurate impression of said loquacity here; you'll have to meet me in person sometime. Then we'll see who wins the "going on, and on, and on" (and at breakneck speed) award.

Dahling, you toooo! We'll have to get Penguin to arrange a cross-cultural meeting or something...

[KatG]

Here in Australia, editing is one of the areas of publishing that has been hugely cut over the past decade or so; publishers spend much less tme than they once did preparing a book, and invest much less in training or developing relationships between editors and writers (and it is a relationship, with all the concomitant pitfalls and rewards). The lack of editing skills is now perceived as a big problem within the publishing industry as a whole - and no wonder - it means that books are rushed out before they're ready and, especially for new writers, that can be disastrous. Also, I've learned so much about writing from good editing that I think that it can't but be harmful to a writer's development not to have this kind of close relationship in the making of a book. Is this erosion of an editing culture the case elsewhere?

Oh yeah, in North America, it's been going on for some time. It's one of the reasons my freelance editing business did well -- I had published authors whose editors simply didn't have any time to work with them, and because the authors were dealing with publishing schedules that are a lot shorter now than they used to be. A lot of agents have had to become editors too because their clients are otherwise at sea. It actually started back in the late 1980's in the U.S. when publishers started buying each other up. When that happened, editors would get fired en masse or leave individually and not be replaced. The editorial staff shrunk and everyone had to do multiple jobs. Plus, they keep adding duties to what editors are expected to do. It may have something to do with the fact that most of the heads of publishing companies come from the marketing side, not editorial, and editing thus becomes the least valued part of the editors' job, as opposed to acquisitions and coordinating publishing programs. Editorial assistants are paid a good bit less than assistants in publicity, marketing or subsidiary rights, yet have to do about three times more work. Each book that comes out, editorial is in charge of, they're the pointmen for each title within the house.

It may be something of a legacy. When I started at a salary that was less than fast food workers were making in New York, they explained that the salaries used to be called stipends because the editorial assistants were all Ivy League trust fund babies who lived happily in Manhattan without needing much regular income. This was back in the 20's-60's, when publishing was a tiny gentleman's business. Editors became bigger stars in the 1970's but when the cutbacks came in the 1980's, like the schools, editing always got cut first.

As for training, there is none. I was line-editing books for publication early on and though I'd like to think that the managing editor department caught any real problems I made or missed, really there was no one supervising my work, much less telling me how to do it. This is partly why I crack up when writers worry that editors are obsessive grammarians who will dismiss them if they don't use perfect English. They've got no idea what a zoo a publishing house tends to be. :)

[Caitlin]

I feel so incredibly lucky to have the editor and publisher I do. Penguin Canada has a very, very strong team of in-house editors; I'm thrilled with mine. Canadian publishing, though, is a completely different beast from its U.S. counterpart. Smaller lists, a smaller readership, smaller sales (a Canadian first novel is considered a success if it sells 5,000 copies). Plus, in my case, a very, very small adult fantasy list. There are no genre imprints in Canada at all; I'm one of only four adult fantasy writers in the Penguin Canada "stable" (along with Guy Kay, Scott Bakker and Jack Whyte). I've always been extremely happy with my editor and our working relationship - and more than that, I've been thankful to her, grateful for her, etc. I agree with Alison's statement about the potential for disastrous results if a writer lacks this editorial bond.

What's becoming clear, however, is that I can't survive as an author within just my Penguin Canada family. I need to make that as-of-yet elusive U.S. sale, plus international ones, or I doubt I have much of a future, money- or reputation-wise. A hard truth. I continue to have faith that Penguin and/or my agent will save me from imminent penury...

How important have the other writers out there found their international sales to be?

[alison]

How important have the other writers out there found their international sales to be?

I'm only a baby in this so I don't know yet. I hope very important. Like Canada, Australia is a small market - and probably you have the some of the same problems, of a small population spread over a wide geographic area, which affects distribution. Genre publishing here is strong - I've been amazed there are so many writers of speculative fiction in Australia (maybe we all want to escape :D ). Penguin and Harper Collins have their own SFF imprints, and there are smaller publishers too, and there is a sizeable local market for these books.

I do feel that Walker and Candlewick are right behind my books, which perhaps counts as much internally as anything else - you need to know that your publisher has faith! I'm hoping that a kind of Garth Nix phenomenon might happen, where overseas sales bumped up his profile here - a couple of years ago, it was very hard to find his books in shops, and now they're everywhere. Well, that remains to be seen. I think, however, that what counts more than anything is having a publisher who is committed to your work and, more importantly, knows what it is. Especially if it's not quite as generic as it might appear.

I do know that I would feel rather down about my books if it wasn't for the o/s stuff. I've fallen between the cracks a bit at Penguin Australia in the past couple of years, though they assure me this will not be the case in the future. (I'm waiting to see if this is more than author-massage :rolleyes: - though they have been very responsive, eg, they've given me the editor I need.)

KatG, my agent told me yesterday that US publishing houses (well, Penguin in NY) still use TYPEWRITERS!! As well as other technophobic stories that seemed unbelievable to wired-up Australians. She said that, compared to Australians, the US publishers have very efficient editorial and incredibly inefficient administrative practises - they still use legal paper for contracts, for example - so it takes month to negotiate anything; whereas here it's the other way around. Anyway, it was a funny story...is it true? It sounds, from what you say, that it might be!

[KatG]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the memory typewriters I used were still around in publishing offices, but no, in general, the U.S. publishers are wired into computer networks. After all, the major U.S. publishers are all owned by foreign multinationals, which does up the technology when the corporations decide to spend money on their publishers, which isn't often. It was a slow process though, with editorial getting the computers last. I won't scare you by telling you how recently major publishers switched from doing royalty statements by hand by accounting staff to more computerized programs. And the editing, such as line editing and copy-editing, is done with pencil mostly, but it sort of has to be. They haven't really designed any good programs to replace it. Book publishing is woefully behind the technological times and editors still are quite often technophobes here (that trust-fund, English major legacy.) Witness Gary's frustration at the sf convention where the editors there are poo-poohing the use of the Internet.

The U.S. publishers are happily buying up the Australian fantasy writers right now, Alison, so you have good chances for your American editions. For awhile there, only the Brits were imported, but now they're hunting further afield. But if epic fantasy goes into full retrench mode, that might have an effect. They've never gone after the Canadians aggressively for two reasons: 1) Canada doesn't have genre publishers so the amount of material available is limited and they don't have as much of a fan base and market buzz for Canadian authors to work with; and 2) the U.S. publishers usually get Canada and the U.S. as their basic territory, importing books to Canada or republishing with their Canadian arms. Sharing the territory and monies with a Canadian publisher therefore isn't as appealing to them as owning the whole enchilada. Which isn't to say you don't have a very good shot, Caitlin, just that you'll probably have to go to them rather than them courting you. A number of Canadian authors have had really good track records in the U.S., so they're definitely favorably disposed. Go to conventions, network, would be my suggestion.

International sales can be a big help. I've seen authors make more money on international rights sales than they did at home base. But for sf/f genre authors, it's harder because very few countries have genre markets and as much of an interest in sf/f stories unless they are bestsellers. But the Internet is definitely helping -- letting fans know about authors in different countries, though mostly the English speaking ones, and giving them cost effective ways to seek them out, leading publishers to bring them over because of the buzz. The sf/f fans are the most hardwired, compared to other fiction readers.

Wow, this has nothing to do with momentum, does it? Sorry, but I guess we could be said to be talking about author momentum anyway. :)

[Larry]

*ahem* Mind if I interject a bit of perception from the other side of the aisle, here? ;)

I was just thinking about this issue from a slightly different viewpoint (and Caitlin can attest to this, considering I had just emailed her earlier today), that of the internet-based reviewer.

When I interviewed Caitlin last month, one of the questions I was curious about was how did she see the internet medium. It's a question that I've asked many of the authors I've interviewed over the past few years. In a world in which everything is becoming more and more "connected," but in a shape and fashion that is in many respects superficially vastly different from the old door-to-door peddling of wares, how does a beginning author gain that needed "Big M"?

It used to be that publishers would do the majority of the work, taking out ads in genre mags (which sadly seem to be going the way of the dinosaur, at least in terms of shaping audience expectations/tastes) or buying huge displays in the B&Ns or Borders of the US market and similar shops elsewhere. But with more authors publishing within the genre field and with advertising budgets remaining flat, more and more agents and authors are having to become more creative with how they expend time, effort, and most importantly, their money.

One strategy that seems to be working relatively well (although it is really hit-and-miss sometimes) is what many have referred to as "viral marketing." Using an update on the old word-of-mouth technique, a smart marketer can get a few well-placed individuals to talk positively about a product and thus get others to clamor for it, without having to spend much more than the wholesale cost of a few products to those individuals. Authors and agents can do this by evaluating the SF/Fantasy Internet scene and identifying which reviewers are more prone to be interested in their works.

Now I'm not suggesting that these reviewers should be "bought off"! Heaven forbid that, considering I'm one of them myself and I would be almost insulted if one presumed that of me! But I do believe that sometimes, all it takes is getting in contact with a handful of the lead reviewers of some of the leading sites (like Caitlin did with me, although that was more of a thank you for my defense of her work against another reviewer) and mailing them a copy of the book. I've received free books from Penguin Canada and from Gary's publisher, Windstorm Creative, as a result of interest I've taken in what is available. Contact your agents - see if they can get in touch with these reviewers and see if these reviewers are willing to do such things as read/review the book and post a review online, conduct an online interview (which is a very cheap and efficient way of getting dozens to thousands of people aware that your books are out there), and then possibly hold promotions for free and/or personalized books (like the site where I work, wotmania, did with Scott Bakker last year).

The costs are really cheap and the potential for increased readership is great. In a world where the publishers might be technophobes, it seems as though it falls upon the authors and agents to be technophiles, utilizing every resource possible to garner reader interest.

Sometimes, it just takes updating the old Networking approach to get the message across for the target audience to read. So get your agents to contact people like me and let us do virtual lunch, okay? :D

[alison]

KatG, your insights are always very interesting - it's really good to get an insider view of what seems otherwise, to this hapless author, merely huge and puzzling...

Aldarion, I'll take you up on that! Lucky you can't be bought, as I can't afford such luxuries... ;)

[Larry]

KatG, your insights are always very interesting - it's really good to get an insider view of what seems otherwise, to this hapless author, merely huge and puzzling...

Aldarion, I'll take you up on that! Lucky you can't be bought, as I can't afford such luxuries... ;)

Being the Southerner that I am, I can't help but respond with a "true dat" to the above :D And check your PM box for my name/address. And please, feel free to call me Larry.

[Caitlin]

My exhortation to every author viewing this is: Send you books to Larry (aka Aldarion). Do it yourself, or get your publishers to do it - but get it done. The man's an online force to be reckoned with - and he does darn good interviews! ;)

What he wrote about authors taking the initiative in terms of marketing their books seems like very, very good advice. I think there's a book out there called "Guerilla Marketing for Writers" that posits the same thing: publishers aren't doing the intensive word-spreading they once did; writers need to do more for themselves. And the internet definitely seems like the place to do this.

The internet, and Larry. :D