[Crysania]

Okay, I'm a little more than half way through Ship of Destiny and the rapes are starting to really make it difficult for me to get through the story.

We first learned of Althea and Devon, then there was that AWFUL bit with Serilla and that disgusting Captain, now we have Kennit who has just raped Althea. All the while the near attempts on Malta made me sweat and have a physiological reaction to the possibility of this happening to her.

Then you have the charm bracelet telling Kennit that rape is not the dragon's way.

WHAT is going on?? Please - bear in mind, I"m not finished with the final book. But if Malta gets raped as well, someone tell me now. I'd rather be prepared for it.

This aspect of the story really bothers me - it's one of my greatest fears, needless to say - I'm sure it's that way with any woman. But the sheer violation, the physical powerless-ness (is that a word?!) of these women... it's starting to bother me. Oh, yes, and of course there was the Althea near-miss with Artu. So what is it? Is she just so gorgeous every man wants to jump her? I thought rape was a crime - and looks/desirability had nothing to do with it. But Amber seems to have avoided such a fate.

And yes, Kennit was raped by Igrot numerous times.... But the fact doesn't make me feel any more sympathy for him. It could have but he threw that away with the rape of Althea.

I'm just rambling b/c it's hard for me to pick up the book right now and continue this otherwise wonderful and brilliant story. Again bear in mind I have not finished it - no spoilers please!!! (Malta and rape aside)

[Matrim]

Err, what was that about Althea and Devon? I read the books more than a year ago but I don't remember him raping her?
A major theme of these books is the role of women in society and since Robin Hobb is not an author who protects her characters and never let's them get into tough situations, she has included rape as a mean to show one of the greatest dangers for women in that male-dominated society. Although Althea's rape is kind of different - Kennit was thinking of Wintrow and Igrot, IIRC so it was more to show how he has turned into a monster due to Igrot's treatment and that he repeated Igrot's mistakes. The fact that Robin Hobb can make you really feel for her characters makes all the scenes in which they suffer especially powerful. When I read about the rape of Althea, I really, really wished Kennit was near me so I can give him what he deserved - a painful death. The portrayal of the Chalcedonians on the Satrap's ship as damned rapists was probably included to show exactly what kind of people they were and why do they wage wars with everybody, they are mentioned often in Hobb's books but rarely take center stage.
Malta doesn't get raped, btw.

[Evil Agent]

I have to admit, I was a bit shocked myself when I read the Liveship books. I never expected Hobb, a female author, to get so graphic.

It's especially upsetting because Hobb made me really like Kennit, right up until that point. And it was even more disturbing if he was thinking about Wintrow (I kind of forgot/pushed that out of my memory!).

But it's part of Hobb's style, dealing with characters, and flaws. Also, the fact that Kennit is repeating what was done to him is a very realistic portrayal of what can happen to children who are abused, and grow up to repeat the circle of events and pass their pain on to someone else...

Anyway, it sounds like you've read through the worst of it. Don't worry, there's no more (as far as I can remember). In fact, I was more disturbed by the rape in Donaldson's Thomas Covenant chronicles, (SPOILERS) especially since it's comitted by the protagonist/hero at the beginning of the series!

As for Amber, well... there's more to her than meets the eye. Have you figured that out yet? I don't think Hobb would let Amber be raped, it would give away too many 'secrets'...

[Crysania]

Yeah, Althea's first sexual experience was being raped by Devon although you could call it date-rape b/c she was interested in him and he took advantage of her. This is told when she's with Brashen the first time.

Okay, thank God I don't have to read about Malta being raped....

Funny, the Covenant rape didn't bother me at all - I just thought Donaldson's sort of stream-of-consciousness style with Covenant made me understand it even though it was abhorrant. Whereas the Kennit rape... interesting you point this out. I wonder why it didn't bother me as much - maybe b/c I didn't know Lena at all and yet have cheered Althea on and 'know' her.....

I picked up on the Wintrow correlation but it just sickened me all the way around that he actually came to care for Wintrow and then do this to his aunt....

As for Amber, I think she's either part of the Fool or one close to the Fool... don't tell me!!!!!! :)

Okay, thanks so much to both of you. I'll forage on tonight and should be finished by tomorrow or the next day for more in-depth discussion.

[Evil Agent]

So you're on the final book, then, right?

Are you going to read Tawny Man next, or have you already?

[Crysania]

Okay, I finished it. I timed it to coincide with Potter... I'll be reading that next. The move on to Tawny Man.

I have to say that the part where Althea gives Paragon the 'pain' associated with the rape was interesting... then Kennit being told he would have a child and he thinks to himself that he would "have to repeat" the past etc. etc. etc.... it's an interesting study on molestation and how the evil has ramifications beyond the act itself. I'm more settled with the rapes now in that I know what she was doing with them. It was just so brutal to have to read through them and when no one believed Althea - even Vivacia, I just couldn't bear it. I think Althea's character was SPOT on for having to go through and deal with it. She was made feral by it.

Anyway, I'll post more on the main thread for Liveship... the Ship of Destiny thread to give my overall impressions.

[algernoninc]

I hope you are not so put-off by this feminist agenda of the Liveship Series as to give up on the Assassin and Tawny Man series - which are much better written [in my opinion]

I think the rape scenes have their place in the development of the plot, and most people agree Robin Hobb writes the best characters. What I found annoying in the Liveship Traders was the way in almost every scene the women took the right decisions and the men the wrong ones. The main character has much too many talents to be credible. The book is a little too political and the male characters shovinistic charicatures. The next books, however, completely erased this impression from my mind.

[Crysania]

I've already read Farseer - years ago. Which is why I stalled on the first Liveship series. I love Liveship. As a feminist, I don't think I agree with your thoughts on her 'agenda'. I think her male characters are strong and central to the plot. The Satrap is the weakest of the lot but even he learns something in the end and Roed Caern a beast - but aside from them, I don't know where you're getting this line of thought. Which 'main character' are you referring to? The rape bothered me for reasons I stated above - none of them political. But I do love Farseer and look forward to Tawny Man.

[algernoninc]

I guess I was refering to Althea when I mentioned main character. Maybe feminism wasn't the best choice of words, but still I found her character overblown and the male characters unrealistic. We are not all of us potential rapists. Possibly this is where my disenchantment with the male characters comes from - this gut feeling of revulsion at any man wwho would abuse a woman... Enough said.

Fitzchivalry is much more believable, especially due to the mistakes he makes. Althea comes up on top every single time.

I plan to re-read this series anyway, as I read it before any other book by Hobb. I found the concept of a telepathic ship one of the most original and well developed ideas in modern fantasy, so over-all this is one of my top ten series of all time. And if you like sailing stories, maybe you will try another of my favorite authors : Joseph Conrad (Youth, Typhoon, The Secret Sharer, etc.)

[Matrim]

Come on, there were lots of male characters in Liveship who were not portrayed as potential rapists.

Althea comes up on top every single time.

How about her plan to disguise as a man in order to receive recommendation or something like that from the captain of that ship in Book 1? It didn't work well at all, I would call that quite a big mistake.