[FicusFan]

Ok, Time to discuss the book this month. I have finished the book, but don't have time to post now. Anyone who is ready, just jump on in.

[Erfael]

I'm BACK. :)

A lot of action here in the AG thread.

I enjoyed this book quite a lot in some regards and found it pretty flat in others. The aspects that I did like revolved around the time period (I found it to be pretty interesting seeing the underbelly of London like that) and the supporting cast (Jacky, the clown, the werewolf, etc.).

The flattest of the flat, in my opinion, was Doyle. He seemed like pretty much a nobody. I really wanted, at any point in the book, for him to really use some of the knowledge he came into the period with to DO SOMETHING. He seemed to just be on rails, riding along through all the sights with nothing really done to affect what was happening to or around him. And the bits of knowledge that he did use from the future were completely paradoxical, which was the biggest issue I had with the book.

There is no such person as Ashburg or Ashberry or whoever (been a few weeks now) until Doyle goes back and becomes him, yet Doyle has been studying his life and works? Where did the poem come from that he recalled from memory of the future? Doyle thought about it for about a paragraph at one point in the book and then sort of shook his head and moved on, which I suppose we were supposed to do, as well? If there was anything in the text to point me to that fact that that paradox was somehow integral to the workings of the book and such, I would be willing to accept it, but it just hangs there (unless I missed something).

*goes off to look around the internet*

Okay, looking around on the internet just now, I find this: Sir William Ashbless

(1785-1846)

William Ashbless appears in nearly every Powers book. He is either alluded to as a poet (The Skies Discrowned, The Stress of Her Regard), or his poetry or translations appear at chapter beginnings. And, of course, he is the main character in The Anubis Gates.

But William Ashbless doesn't belong to Powers alone. James Blaylock also makes use of the fictitious poet.

William Ashbless was a penname that Powers and Blaylock used to publish cowritten poetry in college. When they both needed a name for a poet character in their books, they independently used the same name. After this had been pointed out to them by their editor, they got together and added details to make it look it was the same guy.

Powers and Blaylock produced Offering the Bicentennial Edition of the Complete Twelve Hours of the Night: 1785-1985 (1985) [CB] [hoax prospectus of a William Ashbless collection, with a sample poem, signed by Powers & Blaylock (one signing "William" and the other signing "Ashbless")]

Which doesn't really excuse anything as far as the paradoxical issues go. Either it's a complete paradox or it somehow implies that everything that has happened and ever will happen are already in the books, predestined, and free will is right out.

Barring that, I really enjoyed the book, but wish there had been a little more romping around through time. I had no idea what to expect, as my copy only had blurbs on the back and no plot summary or anything, so it was a nice experience of having almost everything in the book be a surprise, from characters to locations to plot points.

[jainsafel]

I actually really liked the Doyle ----> Ashbless progression. It had a wonderful ring of inevitability about it. It was fascinating to see Powers set up this seemingly impossible situation (how on Earth could one become the other?) and make it work, though plot twists that may seem ridiculous on paper, but make perfect sense within the world of the story. But then, Powers' plots have always reminded me of a really good stage show by a magician - you get a sense you know what's going to happen, but you're still amazed at the end!

As for the paradox - I think it just comes with the territory. Is it even possible to do a time travel story without one? I'm sure some of the harder SF writers have tried (and if any succeeded I'd be interested to know), but pretty much every time travel story I know of - from the Time Machine on down - has a paradox at its core. And further, Powers is a fantasist, not a Science Fiction author, so I doubt making a scientifically sound story was a very high priority. The main thing (I imagine) was that it be *mythically* sound - and arguably it was.

I remember finding that page on Ashbless myself after I read the book a couple of months ago - good on ya for posting it, you beat me to it :p

[FicusFan]

Welcome back Erf.

I too liked Anubis Gates a lot, at the start, and less as it went on. I still enjoyed it and thought it was a pretty good book, but lets say I wasn't as happy as I could have been. This is my first Tim Powers book.

I liked the writing, I didn't mind Doyle - he seemed like a bit of a loser, but that was why Darrow picked him. I was ok with that and how he behaved once he ended up in the past. I knew the book was about time travel, but I bought it because of the Egyptian reference in the title, I am an ancient history buff.


I thought the trip to the past was good, and of course he gets stuck there. I enjoyed the characters, the setting, and the description. The problem for me was just when Powers would show us something and introduce characters then he would move Dolye on, and they would never appear again. You had the Kidnappers and the Gypsies, then the Vegetable seller and his family, then the Beggars that belonged to the clown, then the beggars of the rival beggar king, and their life and organization.

It seemed that Doyle never settled and it was like 'reading interruptus' to me. Some of them did pop back up: The Gypsie King, the Clown, the boy-girl, but these characters really didn't excite me. Then Powers introduced Mad-Dog Joe, and re-introduced Darrow, and Benner. I didn't really enjoy the body switching sub-plot, it was all too predictable. The sillyness with Darrow trying to kill Benner, and trying to kill Doyle. Just seemed to be made to order to produce what happened later. I also wasn't awed or excited about the whole paradox thing that Fikee was Mad-Dog Joe, that the crazy old man was the Gypsie king and both were in the same place and time.

I didn't buy that Benner's body was Ashbless, and Doyle didn't notice it before it happened. The whole Ashbless/Benner didn't work for me because Powers kept writing about how big Ashbless was, but much less often with Benner, so he seemed smaller. I thought the shaving parlor and the rich guy whose death trapped and killed Fikee was not that interesting.

It just all struck me as hodge-podge bits put together to get exactly those results, so it wasn't wonderful or interesting, it was like being behind the curtain and watching the wizard work, rather than just seeing the magical results. I guess it just didn't work for me as inventive or imaginative writing. What did work was the writing itself, the setting and the characters. I think he would be a better writer of historical fiction than of fantasy.

I noticed about the poetry - writing it in the past but only because he read it back in the future. So how did it come into being since it has no beginning ? Given how the book was written I imagine it is supposed to be something you dwell on but I think of it more as an authorial mistake.

I thought the whole trip back to 16XX was pointless, other than to set up a couple of rather tired paradoxes.

Not really sure what the point of the whole journey in the Middle East was, other than to create the golem that could die in Ashbless' place later on in life. The plotting just seemed so transparent and awkward that you could see it a mile away.

The writing was above average though. I cared about many of the characters, I believed them as people and as people of the past. I liked the settings, they were interesting and very well done.

I missed the whole fake Ashbless angle. Can't say I see that it matters to the book or the story.



Not sure I will seek out another Tim Powers book.

[estranghero]

Oh please do check out his other works, FF. :)

This was my 2nd Tim Powers book I read, the first being "On Stranger Tides", which has a lot of common themes as the movie "Pirates of the Caribbean" but is just as fun. (Of course, no Jack Sparrow here!)

The third, "Declare", I believe was his best and I feel this was what he was trying to aim for when he first wrote "The Anubis Gates" (and why it didn't work).

In "Declare", Powers created a secret history about the Cold War, British and Russian spies, and ancient djinns, etc. that fit perfectly running parallel with the actual history of the world during WW2. It was quite fantastic.

However, I think "The Anubis Gates" was Powers' first attempt to write a story-- a secret history-- that could fit into actual history. A story about magic and Egyptian gods, werewolves, body-switching, and time-travel... Unfortunately, it seemed like Powers was throwing everything into the story except for the kitchen sink (well, if he did, I missed seeing it).

Because of this, a lot of elements in his story appeared contrived. Why it ultimately-- though barely--- worked was because Powers is a magician: he kept switching elements, ideas, subplots before the readers could latch on to them to distract them. Hence the reader suddenly finds himself at the end of the story before he knows it.

In "Declare", Powers limits his scope to the above topics and this is precisely why it works.

IMHO of course. ;)

[Janos]

Well, I picked this up a few years back at a used book store, not really knowing what to expect. But I'm a sucker for a Time Travel book. I've been in a different state so I didn't get a chance to reread the book before posting so the details are a little fuzzy...

What I like about any well written time travel book is the twist an author has the ability to make in it. While I don't particularly think that paradoxes could actually happen, I do enjoy reading about them. The thing I most enjoy is the feeling of understanding when it dawns on you what's really going on.

When Doyle sat down in the pub and started writing, and Ashbless never appeared, I was like "Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, THAT's what's going on! Cool!"

As for the paradox - I think it just comes with the territory. Is it even possible to do a time travel story without one? I'm sure some of the harder SF writers have tried (and if any succeeded I'd be interested to know), but pretty much every time travel story I know of - from the Time Machine on down - has a paradox at its core. And further, Powers is a fantasist, not a Science Fiction author, so I doubt making a scientifically sound story was a very high priority. The main thing (I imagine) was that it be *mythically* sound - and arguably it was.

Yeah, I do prefer a stricter science background in a Time Travel novel, and I wasn't too overly fond of the fantastical elements in The Anubis Gates, but I did like the end result of the story.

I suggest trying David Gerrold's, The Man Who Folded Himself, there's no Paradoxes in that one ;) - Well, there's kind of one but it basically deals with the time traveling device and if there wasn't a device, then there'd be no story so I kinda ignored that. :D

[Nevyn]

Lighten up a little people ! Powers nailed it perfectly and delivered a fun and entertaining read !
"paradoxes" come on , there ain't no such thing as time travel . Is there ?
Who gets to decide what the rules of time travel should be anyhow ?

This was my first experience with Powers and definately not my last . I found his writing to be well above the accepted average , 'captivating' would be an appropiate expression . I personally found the pace of the story refreshing with just the right amount of detail for my liking ie. where Ficus found he was 'reading interruptus' I wanted the story to keep moving on (probably because I've been reading Hyperion for three months now) . I like how things started to seem predictable only to stretch the mark a little bit further than I anticipated .
Doyle to Ashbless , I really liked this one . Piss ant to Fire ant ! "Die Hard" with poetry ;)

[williemeikle]

Fantasy fans will love Powers' early work, "The Drawing of the Dark" ... a glorious romp in 16th Century Vienna involving beer, the Fisher King, dark magic, beer, drunk Vikings, old wizards, beer and battles.

Quite hard to find now, but well worth seeking out.

Willie
http://www.willie.meikle.btinternet.co.uk

[Hobbit]

Quite hard to find now, but well worth seeking out.

Actually, Willie, it is easier to get this one in the UK at least, as it is part of the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks series (Number 33!)

I will add that I thought it was pretty good too. :)

Hobbit

[FicusFan]

I personally found the pace of the story refreshing with just the right amount of detail for my liking ie. where Ficus found he was 'reading interruptus' I wanted the story to keep moving on (probably because I've been reading Hyperion for three months now) . I like how things started to seem predictable only to stretch the mark a little bit further than I anticipated .
Doyle to Ashbless , I really liked this one . Piss ant to Fire ant ! "Die Hard" with poetry ;)


Part of it was because he was so good at his writitng. I wanted more from even the small settings and walk-ons. I got very annoyed to get only a little here and there. So I wanted to follow a different path through the story and characters than he did :) They lived to me, and I wanted to see what they were doing.

estranghero, I will probably try Declare since I have also heard others say it is very good.