[Erfael]

Discuss, please. :)

[Erfael]

Another book I really enjoyed, to a degree.

First off, could someone post a synopsis of the original ending? I had a quick look, but didn't see one at Moorcock's multiverse site. I may have missed it, though.

One of the things I found most interesting with this book was how it sort of works against the typical fantasy shape of darkness to light. A lot of fantasy has the heroes striving to fix some wrong or move society into a brighter phase. Gloriana focuses on Quire's desire to bring the kingdom down. (Which is why I wonder about the original ending....the whole rape-leading-to-a-good-happy-kingdom thing didn't really do it for me). So maybe it could be about how the rogue Quire falls in love with the queen and is reformed into the king? Hard to say there, I guess.

One thing I didn't think was so successful was that Moorcock seemed to be making the suggestion that Gloriana's unfulfilled sexual desires and Albion's fate were tied together, but failed to really express how that fate was to be so negative.

There was also the interesting study of how the old reign was affecting the new one, years down the line. That she was Montfallcon's grandaughter seemed a little too convenient for my tastes, though.

One thing I really did like was the castle, which may have been where Moorcock's biggest focus lay in writing the book, as it was an attempt to do something Ghormengastian. The general feel of the castle, as seen from all different angles was of a vast, layered thing, hunkering down through the years.

Another aspect of the story that I enjoyed was that when Quire disappeared to lay his plans for the downfall of Montfallcon we lost track of him as a character. We got to sort of peripherally witness some of his actions, but it was always off-camera. This, to me, had a nice effect of keeping things a little more in the dark, keeping the mystery of how and why Quire was doing all of these things until his plan to get close to the queen came to bloom.

All for now. Look forward to hearing more thoughts.

[Yobmod]

I loved this book, easily my favourite Moorcock, and one of my top fantasy books. I knew i would love it from the first chapter, just because of the language, its a great job as a Peake tribute, and just different enough to make it worth reading instead of rereading Gormanghast.

I guess the prose has biased me against any flaws in the plot, but then i thought it was all about the atmosphere of the castle, so a thinish plot was all that could be fit in. The Gloriana / Albion parellel's were admitedly a bit nebulous, i assumed the characters were exagerating her importance tho. Although being in England i think the reign of a long lived monarch can have a huge effect on the structure and feel of a society. Queen Victoria oversaw a huge change in the constitution of Britain, but her disposition (losing inteest in governance after being widowed) played a large part in this - if she had been happier parliament would probably have less power now. Queen Elizabeth's virignity is also seen as essential to her ability to wield power in the way she did. I think Gloriana's situation was similar in that she couldn't govern properly whilst unsatisified, but romanticised in a way appropriate to the book.

The only flaw is the ending IMO. In my version Quire attempts the rape, but Gloriana overpowers him. This caused her orgsam, therefore she can fulfill her role as queen, with Quire her proper husband. But surely she could overpower people whenever she wanted? So why should it suddenly be the be all and end all? It was OK, but her fullfilment seemed a bit arbitary.

AFAIK, in the original ending Quire suceeded in the rape, and this is what fullfilled Gloriana. It may not be PC or very pleasant, but seems to make more sense. Gloriana completely dominates any situation she is in, but needs to be dominated to be fulfilled sexually (pretend domination clearly wasn't sufficient). If Moorcock had written a story about a high powered businessman who finds pleasure in being degraded and tortured by a women, then i doubt there would have been much controversy. Equality means treating women (or female characters) as equal to their male counterparts, not sealing them in a box that says 'women can enjoy sex, but only if its the state-approved vanilla kind'.

[toriphile]

I never read the original ending but I've always thought that the whole rape/fulfillment thing is a really grim and extremely twisted (and probably intended as ironic) way to show Gloriana's realization as a real woman and the patriarchal society as truly oppressing: Moorcock was commenting on a time in which rape was considered natural (and during the '70s, when the novel was written, not talking about it was probably more than natural). Also, raping is something Gloriana's father would do and she had some contradicting feelings towards him so this act of violence might serve as a kind of reconciliation tool... I don't know; this could be far-fetched. I am sure of one thing - Moorcock didn't write this chapter for the sake of controversy.

Maybe a rape scene is unnecesarily extreme, but I don't think that threatening Quire's manhood with a knife is better either - that was too obviously symbolic. The penultimate chapter was not entirely convincing - the thoughts of the queen on her fulfillment could have used a few more pages; the ending was a bit anticlimactic for me.

It is very hard to find a good book on moral issues in which the author's doesn't sound like he (or she) is trying to preach. I think that Moorcock did a great job. The book is one of the best fantasy novels ever and probably Moorcock's greatest.

[Nevyn]

I haven't read any of the posts yet cause I'm still reading the book , but I'll add that this is my first Moorcock book . The first few chapters to me seemed somewhat flighty though intensely rich in discription with an average but enjoyable prose.............more later

[Erfael]

Also, raping is something Gloriana's father would do and she had some contradicting feelings towards him so this act of violence might serve as a kind of reconciliation tool... I don't know; this could be far-fetched.

Her father raped her mother when she was 13 or so to conceive Gloriana and then raped Gloriana at that same age. So I imagine that's where all of her sexual "dysfunction" came into play and that then her only relief could come in the form of being raped again. I get all that, but again not how that somehow is supposed to affect her rule. Can the country not run unless everyone is happy in bed? Or unless there's a man's will being thrown about? Or something to do with seed?

[Rob B]

I consider myself a fairly big Moorcock fan, I like the majority of his Eternal Champion stuff. However, I didn't like the Jerry Cornelius books at all. And it should come as no surprise, since Erfael liked Gloriana, I didn't care much for it.

I appreciated alot of what he did in this novel, in terms of the twisting of preconceived notions and what not, but the style just didn't sit well with me. I was quite bored towards the last 1/3 of the book and didn't really care what happened with the characters or in the story, as a whole.

[FicusFan]

I found the book to be very uneven. My first experience was total boredom with the start and the description of the castle. I realize it was a tribute to Gormenghast , but not even close in terms of writing ability. It took me a week to get past page 7. I thought the start was dead, and I think this deadness at the start carried over into the characters. They seemed silly and lifeless for most of the book. I never was very interested in them, nor did I care what happened to them.

My next feeling was that the book was offensive. There seemed to be a definite vein of misogyny running through the book. The idea that MM would build up this fantastic land, and all these characters, and a 'great' queen just to tear her down, in petty and humiliating ways (her greatest sorrow is that she can't have an orgasm) and that it was known throughout the kingdom, was smarmy. Then when Quire started playing with the young serving girl with his sword, I was creeped out. Bt the time he introduces Montefallcon with his two wives, whom he abuses so their screams will drown out Gloriana's weeping, (with the implication that they are just the latest of his victims, and that the previous wives didn't survive,) you just accept it and keep reading. Then later on, as icing on the cake we learn about the rape-fest that featured Gloriana and her mother, the slaughter of the young girl children, and the mostly passive sex slaves. Leading up to Gloriana's redemption and fulfillment after another rape.

I know that the characters are supposed to be people, and not all people are those you would like, but I don't understand why MM set it up this way. Why create something glorious just so you can wipe your feet on it ? I realize the book is also influenced by Spenser’s Faerie Queene, but I haven’t read it and so have no idea what got MM’s panties in such a twist that he felt the need to write the Anti-Faerie Queene. Certainly when works are produced for important and powerful people there is a tendency to brown-nose and exaggerate. But lets face it, there is a least some basis for homage done to Elizabeth. Even if Spenser painted Elizabeth I and her court as the second coming of King Arthur, I don’t see the need to become extreme in the opposite direction. While MM is free to write anything and tell any story how he sees fit, I found that I was more conscious of his actions and wondered about his possible reasons, than I was ever captured by the story or able to suspend my disbelief and exist in his world.

When Quire decided to bring the kingdom down for such a petty reason, I felt that the whole story and the book was a waste of time and space. The reasoning and response of Quire was not in any way realistic. I just couldn't believe that a Englishman of the time would be in league with a foreigner, even if he was just going through the motions. Especially with Bloody Mary and her Spanish consort so close to the past, and the Armada hovering over the future.

I also thought Quire's reasoning was just so much hypocrisy - he said he never made excuses for his bad behavior, he just did it for his art. Yet his pique over the lack of respect from Montfallcon was nothing but an excuse to behave badly.

The version I have has The Ermine Portrait of Queen Elizabeth I on the cover, picture (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0446691402/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9233958-9636800#reader-link) and the more time I spent with it, the more stunning I thought the picture was and the more the story inside suffered in comparison to such beauty and such real art on the outside.

There were some positives to the book:

When Quire and Montefallcon have their spat over respect and art – I felt that I was reading the distilled essence of Shakespeare. It wasn’t authentic language of the plays but it seemed to simulate it in feeling and content. There was something about it that was fabulous.

There were also some patches of the story that were written so they created a beautiful, sensuous reading experience (though too short).

He did an interesting job on the social structure, without hitting you over the head with it. (He also seemed to take a swipe at organized religion in passing too.)

I was struck how later in the book when Quire is plotting to bring the whole thing down that there was no real defense against him; primarily because the whole edifice was built on a lie. They wanted to fool Gloriana into thinking it was all sweetness and light, so they lied to her, did bad things in her name, and hid what they had to do to make it happen. But even though the surface was supposed to be built on law, and honor, none of those at court seem to question Montefallcon's actions or behaviors regarding his wives. Nobody seems to worry about 'young' Patch being sodomized by his master. (Not that homosexuality is the problem, just the age of the master and the youth of Patch.)

You can also say that their actual disregard takes in all humanity when they look upon the beings from other realms as a joke and as something for their amusements, rather than people being kidnapped from their homes, and suffering in Albion. They make cooing noises and lock them up and look after them, but never forbid Dr, Dee or the Thane from going out and doing it again. And they know about Gloriana's harem, which keeps people around as sex toys - but they still talk and act like their age is so much better than the previous one.

It seemed that the whole idea of acceptable behavior only covered what they did publicly and in an official capacity, their private vices were acceptable because they all turned a blind eye to them and their consequences. Because they allowed their neighbor’s vices to pass un-noticed, they expected and got the same in return.

I suppose when Gloriana does fall under Quire's sway, he at least gets them to own up to their vices, rather than pretending they don't exist. But he does it by calling them virtues, and seducing them into seeing that what they want is really good for them, and good for the realm. He fools them into thinking that by fulfilling all their private wants they are also strengthening their public façade and the realm, when they are really weakening it. He shows that because of greed and the quest for self-satisfaction, it is easy to manipulate supposedly well-off, educated and sophisticated people into eagerly slitting their own throats and smiling while they do it.

In my book there are both versions of the ending. The one that is attached to the story has an actual rape of Gloriana and through it she becomes fulfilled, and Quire is able to allow his love for Gloriana to bloom and they become Ken and Barbie.

There is an alternative last chapter as an appendix. It has Gloriana taking over (with a knife ) and not being raped. She is finally able to break out of the role of Gloriana and all the expectations, and be the person Gloriana and she is fulfilled and Quire has come to love her, but is now mostly irrelevant to Gloriana.

On the one hand MM seems to be saying that unalloyed goodness as represented by Gloriana and her refusal to execute, punish, or rebuke is an untenable way to live because the bad and the evil will take advantage of your goodness and gulibility. That the evil of Hern and his henchmen, done either openly during Hern's time for pleasure, or secretly during Gloriana's time in defense of the realm - is corruptive of those who do it, and those who are protected or profit by it. That the true way to live is to be pragmatic and temper honor with strength and justice with mercy. I have no problem with that. But to me there is an undercurrent in the book that seems to suggest that anything that is fine, and noble and a good example, is really rotten to core upon closer inspection. I find that sad.

[Yobmod]

I guess i can understand being offended by the lots of things in the book. I couldn't tell if the constant reference to it being a Golden Age were some kind of irony, considering the number of evil characters, nasty sexual practices, underhand plots etc. But for me the quality of the writing made the voyeurism of reading about these otherwise awful characters enthralling.

One of the major differences in tone from Gormanghast was the inclusion of so much darkness and evil. In Gormanghast the castle is mostly dank and dark but didn't feel malevolent, it was simply a result of natural decomposition. And the characters were misguided or self-absorbed but rarely despicable (with the exception of Steerpike). And the occasional flashes of light and fun in gormanghast made it seem like a very cool place to live.
By contrast the castle in Gloriana was full of traps for the unwary, and Gloriana herself was the one of the only characters who didn't deserve to be in prison for a long time. Maybe a little more lighness would have been welcome.

btw, did any else like that Gloriana was what my mother would call a big-boned or hearty girl. That made a change from being stick-thin and tiny, or hugely fat.

[Holbrook]

I read this when it first came out, so I suppose that means I read the first version of the ending. In fact I didn't know there was another until I looked at this thread.

In retrospect a lot of what, least to me, Gloriana is about is the state of Albion or England of that time. (Late 1970's) The so called glory of the past i.e. Empire, being the world leader had been ripped away from the nation’s consciousness, leaving only the sour taste of all our mistakes as a nation lingering, sickening us.

All we were left with was the sins of that time, lying heavy, being drummed into us as a nation that we, this generation, were evil and a vile rapist of the world. We had the sins of the fathers on our back and were just as bad as those that had gone before us, but now we didn't have the big stick anymore.

The country itself, class and society was in a way being raped by the battle for control by unions, politicians far more so than anytime I can remember over the past 40 years. In fact every one had their knife in the "body" of Albion. In fact looking back it was not a good time to live through. Many believed that “raping” the country, that is by cutting out the past and making everything new, all would be well and better.

Maybe Moorcock was trying to say, go on rape me, try and take from me what I am, only you might be surprised when that rape turns out to be the fulfilling of me. I take what you have done to me and remake it and everything I am into something better, something that will survive and grow.

In a way the times mimicked the end of Elizabeth I's reign. The great victory of the Armada had faded out into the never ending drain of supporting the religious wars on main land Europe. Add to that the troubles in Ireland and the fact that most people were looking north to Scotland and the future King, for change in the country. You can see that Elizabeth’s court had become an empty shell of glitter and paste, the promise of its early days gone, raped by time, politics and desire to survive unchanging and forever Gloriana.

I always have had fond memories of this book; it was the first that made me question a lot of things about me and my preconceived ideas of the world around me and how fiction can be used to express themes beyond what they seem to be on the outside...