[Liam Sharp]

Coming onto this site has awakened a whole bunch of memories about books I've not thought about for years. I actually read Richard Adams' Maia before Shardik and recall very much enjoying it - though appart from vague memories of slavery, it hasn't really lingered much as a story.
Shardik, on the other hand, lingers potently. At the time I read it, in about the mid 80s, it shone as economical, beautiful, fearless and shocking. The horrors visited on various characters, the dreadful tormet of the poor bear... really a wonderful, dark book populated by grotesque and beautiful characters. Worth a read.

L.

[Lowlander]

These two books are certainly no classics compared to his masterpiece "Watership Down". Still I rather liked both of these books. The fantasy elements are minimal and "Maia" is much too long for the story it tells. But all in all not a bad read. Knowing that in the late 70's early 80's fantasy had to be "Tolkienesque" (thanks to Mr. Brooks and Shannara) to be commercially succesful you can even consider Shardik and Maia to be rather original.

I find it surprising how many people hate these books, especially Maia. The idea that a young girl can only be influential in a patriarchal society by using her body and having sex with powerful men seemed repellent to people 25 years ago. When I see how succesful Ms. Carey is with her Kushiel novels I think people were not ready for this kind of heroine. Compared to Phedre Delaunay poor Maia is rather a prude.

[Liam Sharp]

It's funny, but I just couldn't find any interest in the Shanara type stuff. I love hero-sagas, I studied or read many of the originals; the Aeneid, The Odyssey, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, many of the Irish Cuculain stories and folklore, the welsh Mabingnogion, a bunch of Arthurian material, etc. - and this kind of work seemed watered down, almost soap-opera style star-trek (we know who's going to die) fare. The source material was much tougher, and it's poetic prose was genuinely historical, not kitch. Shardik, your right, was original at the time. Only fantasy really in the sense that the bear was VERY big, and that the realm and people were entirely fictitious. I know it suffered against Watership Down because it was relentlessly humourless and bleak. As for Maia, I missed all the vehemence about it. As a young male teen full of hormones, I'm sorry to say I wasn't really complaining about the content! It seemed to me good that such a strong female character had a whole book to herself and climbed to the top through guile and sex (t's coming back now!) Isn't that how it so often works even in reality, wrong though it might be? Certainly is on "footballer's wives" as far I understand it... and that's reality isn't it? ;)

[Liam Sharp]

Uhh... please note, I have never, and never would, watch "Footballer's Wives". I'm just making a slender point! :D

[alison]

Isn't that how it so often works even in reality, wrong though it might be?

Uh - that's what is often said about powerful women, especially if they're attractive. Usually to denigrate the woman's actual abilities. The truth is that women become powerful in a patriarchal society only by being six times as cunning, intelligent and talented as other men.

[Liam Sharp]

Hi Alison.

No offence meant. Though I know of men who slept their way to the top...
I think it's a person type, not a man/woman thing in particular. Certainly strong women in history - in Roman times, and other male dominated eras and societies - achieved their power through the means you suggest. They had to be amazingly strong, cunning and brave to get there - not to mention incredibly inteligent and talented.

Always rocky ground as it can seem like gross generalisation, but I was talking from the POV of a randy 15 year old boy, ignorant and full of raging hormones. As a father of three with a very strong wife, whom I respect and admire emensely, I would never suggest seriously that all successful women achieve their ends entirely through sexual cunning - but that's not to say it's NEVER happened, and that's all I meant. Just that it's not entirely unbelievable - is it? It doesn't usually happen that way, but that's not to say it couldn't.

Or am I just digging myself a bigger hole? :confused:

Anyway, again, sorry if I offended. Not my intention. I'd hate to be mistaken for a mysogenistic idiot.

[Julian]

Uh - that's what is often said about powerful women, especially if they're attractive. Usually to denigrate the woman's actual abilities. The truth is that women become powerful in a patriarchal society only by being six times as cunning, intelligent and talented as other men.

What patriarchal societies are you talking about? And why 6 times, instead of, say, 3 :) ? Ah well, never mind!

Back to the subject: Shardik should, in my mind, certainly be considered something of a classic. Oh, it's pretty much ignored generally, since it just doesn't fit into any (marketable) category, but this was Adams writing - not a children's story, like the Hobbit, like Watership Down - but a full-fledged novel.

Shardik is extraordinary because it defies all conventions - past or present. To my mind, it is the work of an accomplished but also quite non-comformist writer. And although it's about a bear, it certainly wasn't what most people were expecting from the writer of the equally excellent (but much more readily palatable) "Watership".

Personally, I like works like Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast and John Crowley's Aegypt. If you do as well, you may also wish to give Shardik a try. It's very much a fantasy, to my mind - but also very much a different type of fantasy.

[algernoninc]

I read Shardik and Maya in the late 80's, right after Tolkien and long before Jordan, Brooks and Tad Williams. I'm glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed those books.

Richard Adams was for me the archetypal storyteller - the person who gather his friends around a fire on a cold winter night and mesmerizes them with tales of distant lands and adventures. In a lot of writers now I can see the mechanisms they deploy to write a bestseller - like recipe for commercial success. I'm older now by several hundred fantasy books, and my taste buds more jaded, but I still remember fondly the world and the characters Adams created.

[Banger]

I read Watership Down as a kid and Shardik last winter and loved both. I never even heard of Maia until I read this thread.

Go figure.

Anyone have opinions about Plague Dogs and Tales from Watership Down?

[TCat]

Anyone have opinions about Plague Dogs and Tales from Watership Down?

I haven't read Tales from Watership Down yet even though it's in the "to be read list". However, I would rank Plague Dogs up there with one of the best novels I've read. Very enjoyable, dark, and yet involving with a lot of social commentary while being very readable at the same time. Very well worth reading.