[saintjon]

Warrior-Prophet had TOO MANY good scenes for me to pinpoint one, but I think most of my favourites involved Cnaiur rampaging on people. When you really want to take living vicariously to the outer limits Cnaiur is hard to top (the dark side of which emerges in book 3 lol)

As for tactics, I'm too drunk atm to address the not sticking to the coast issue, but as far as camp followers, I don't think an army back then would decide when they would or wouldn't have camp followers, they're just there cuz their living depends on it, meanwhile the army ends up out in the desert with a bunch of extra people to take care of and they just aren't mean enough to wipe them out and save the expense (the growing influence of Kellhus' compassionate pseudo-religion would have probably dissuade people from wiping out the camp followers as well).

I agree that the scene with Kellhus in the cellar was VERY GOOD.

Actually wait a minute, my absolute favourites were Akka finally cutting loose with the Gnosis. Wizards are cool to me again, all thanks to Scott.

[Dawnstorm]

Okay, so nobody's going to help me out here? Because I'm sure I missed some details. Why does the Holy War march into the desert when the cities they are after are basically on the coast? Why did they initially take all the camp followers with them on a desert foray? Why did they hole up all their forces in the walled city once they took it, letting themselves get bottled up there under siege? (Of course, by then their command structure had fallen apart.)

I must admit I can't remember, and battle tactics haven't really been my emphasis when reading early either. You make good points, but I can't really assess them.

As it is, I'll forgive any possible implausibilities as far as the desert is concerned. The march through the desert, to me, is one of the most powerful scenes concerning the Holy War proper. I gain respect and understanding for the Fanim, by setting alone. I see what faith can do better than anywhere else in WP. I get a feeling for fatigue and desperation (the "mundane" aspects of war). For once, Khellus's Warrior-Prophetness isn't overemphasised but blends nicely with the scheme of things (I thought the way Khellus was put at the centre of the story in the first 2/3 of the book was its greatest weakness; in my reading). In short, I loved that episode (it's more a panorama than a scene, really, but it worked exceptionally well for me).

I've decided that my favorite scene in the book is Kelhaus in the sort of cellar area, fighting off the Consult. That was definitely a gripping hand to hand combat scene. What about everybody else?

The scene I remember most vividly is the one where Xinemus renounces his position to go after Achamian and Proyas is conflicted between belief, personal obligation and emotion. It must have been the most powerful scene for me.

Another one I loved was Achamian having his speech, having people almost believe him and Mandate, until Conphas singlehandedly ruins the moment. Great stuff.

(Can you tell I'm more into character interaction than into action? ;) )

[Murrin]

I think I can answer the bit about why they had to cross the desert: Most of the places they were conquering are on the coast along the edge of the desert, but there is one stretch of land - Khemema, between Shigek and Enathpaneah - where the desert reaches all the way to the sea. They couldn't go around it, and didn't have the means to transport the whole army by sea, so they had to march through. They would have been supplied with water by the Nansurium fleet if it hadn't been attacked.

[KatG]

Okay, that helps Murrin -- if they had to cross, they had to cross. It didn't seem a very well thought out plan, though, especially if they believed the Fanim's navy was their weak point.

St. John -- they did slaughter the camp followers. They slaughtered every man, woman and child, by executive order, and took their supplies and horses, because otherwise the army would not make it through the desert because they didn't have enough water. So what was confusing for me was why the camp followers were not left back in the captured non-desert territory as an occupying civilian force. Cnaiur was still nominally in charge of the forces at that point, and had contempt for the Holy War's inability to travel light, so you think he would have suggested that they not take the whole kit and caboodle with them even part of the way from Iothian (sp.?). (Not that he had a problem with their being slaughtered.) Kelhaus didn't object to the slaughter and Proyas agreed with the order. But I'm thinking I missed some of the logistics involved there.

[saintjon]

Forgot about the slaughter, it being a late and beer-soaked night when I posted last, might be that Cnaiur didn't press the camp-follower issue before they started to cross because he was too busy going nuts and if he thought of it, he might have just written it off as an inrithi idiosyncracy or something.

[KatG]

Well, we know that the Holy War is divided and frequently inept. The Vulgar Holy War being a first example. But it didn't seem clear to me what their plan was for the desert part, inept or not, which sort of distracted me from the pathos a bit. When they got to the city, they were of course a mess, but the attempts at strategy were a little fuzzy since the focus shifted to Kelhaus and his status. I guess sometimes I wish Scott had spent a little more time at command headquarters during those parts, so I could follow better what was going on. But I do like how he developed Kelhaus in this novel.

[saintjon]

have you read The Thousandfold Thought yet Katg?

[KatG]

Not yet, no. I have a bunch of books I have to plow through first. It sounds like the ending of it is quite open, which I'm maybe not going to like, but lots of stuff happening in it.

[saintjon]

Yeah that's pretty succinct. The ending was fairly open, but wrapped enough up for me. It'll be interesting to see how things stand where Scott picks up the story again, I heard it's a time lapse of decades between this book and the next.

[Morgoth]

Okay, that helps Murrin -- if they had to cross, they had to cross. It didn't seem a very well thought out plan, though, especially if they believed the Fanim's navy was their weak point.

St. John -- they did slaughter the camp followers. They slaughtered every man, woman and child, by executive order, and took their supplies and horses, because otherwise the army would not make it through the desert because they didn't have enough water. So what was confusing for me was why the camp followers were not left back in the captured non-desert territory as an occupying civilian force. Cnaiur was still nominally in charge of the forces at that point, and had contempt for the Holy War's inability to travel light, so you think he would have suggested that they not take the whole kit and caboodle with them even part of the way from Iothian (sp.?). (Not that he had a problem with their being slaughtered.) Kelhaus didn't object to the slaughter and Proyas agreed with the order. But I'm thinking I missed some of the logistics involved there.

The Great Names would likely not have even considered leaving "rabble" and caste-menials behind as an occupation force. Besides, they were confident that they would rendezvous with the Imperial navy and wouldn't have to concern themselves with little things like what to eat and drink once they got supplied. As for Cnaiur, he had other things on his mind (Kellhus, Serwe) and, even if he were sane, probably wouldn't give a toss whether thousands of Inrithi died in the desert.

Bakker focused a great deal on how important steeds, supplies & equipment are to a medieval army, and not many fantasy writers do that (Martin's another). Without their baggage trains & materials to forage, pillage, hunt & gather, a medieval army is totally screwed. The logistics involved in manoeuvering that kind of fighting force must have been nearly impossibly complicated, and I think Bakker has done well at bringing that reality to light.