[Jack]

Hi All!

So I'm assuming this is the forum I would come to post answerable questions regarding The Warrior Prophet? Sometimes the line between our resident author forums and the regular fantasy forums are a bit thin, so... if this is out of place, my apologies, and mods feel free to move it wherever.

Spoilers for the first part of Warrior Prophet. Since this is clearly indicated in the threads title, I'll assume you wouldn't be reading this unless you have read the book.

So I'm right towards the end of the first section of the book (Saubon's strike), which, by the way, contains one of the most fully realized battle sequences I've read in a spec fic novel. I mean, WOW. I'd about given up on battle sequences, since usually its so hard for me to picture the action. But with the focus set on the individuals after the initial clash, I was gripping my hardbound copy like I was holding on for life. Good stuff.

Anywho, several characters point out that Sarcellus (skin spy) is dead. Dead, dead, dead. Punished per the mysterious instructions of Kellhus. Then, when the Greater and Lower Council is held around that huge bonfire, Kellhus notices Sarcellus across the fire, and doesn't seem to think anything of the fact that he is supposedly dead. Has the skin spy resurrected himself somehow? What the heck is going on?

I'd really appreciate some illumination, because this is driving me bonkers.

[Scott Bakker]

I'm glad you liked the battle! But then, I did rip it off from Homer...

I'm not sure which characters you're referring to. Sarcellus's death is briefly narrated in the battle sequence, then mentioned in the Synthese section. Otherwise, all I can suggest is that you read on. Everything is actually explained, though I think my impressionistic style often obscures that.

[Jack]

I'm glad you liked the battle! But then, I did rip it off from Homer...

I'm not sure which characters you're referring to. Sarcellus's death is briefly narrated in the battle sequence, then mentioned in the Synthese section. Otherwise, all I can suggest is that you read on. Everything is actually explained, though I think my impressionistic style often obscures that.

Hey Ooo! A response from the man himself. Fantastic. Yes, I just had the chance to read some more on my lunch break, and boy do I feel foolish. :rolleyes: My question was answered not but a few pages later.

Anywho, thanks for the speedy response. Talk about a direct line to the author. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

So in lieu of starting a new thread, I just wanted to post a spoiler-ific observation here. I'd like to know if anybody else thought this was the most incredibly awesome cool righteous event up to this part:

Akka escaping the Scarlet Spires. Everything from the little doll coming to scratch away the sigil beneath him to the full unleashing of the GNOSIS! You know, I've been reading about the gnosis for damn near a thousand pages, and about how incredibly powerful it is, but up until now all I've really seen of the Mandate Sorcerers is a kind of petty craziness, weak, mocked individuals who quibble among themselves and have awful nightmares. Not until now do I realize why it is the other schools really resent the Mandate so greatly - because the power of the Gnosis trumps all other sorcery. I mean, wow. And what a beautifully written sequence. I have to say, this is a book I can really see: from the aforementioned battle scenes, the sex scenes, and even the calm and serenity of the desert, pre-SHTF, of course, is all vivid in my mind.

Radical book. Right on. Radness.

[Dawnstorm]

Finally finished The Warrior Prophet. I'm using this thread because it's got a nice big Spoiler tag outside. I hope Homer will forgive me. :cool:

On balance, I enjoyed TDtCB more, but the ending of TWP was the most intense section yet (impossible to put down the book).

Things I liked during approximately the first 2/3 of the book:

The desert. Great panoramic writing. When they later talk about the desert making (or breaking) men, you know what they're talking about.

Cnaiür has some great scenes: The one scene - in the beginning - with him and Achamian is brilliant (shows them off against each other). The way he's determined to not accept being accepted... Great stuff.

What came as a surprise was that in the first 2 thirds of the book, most of the scenes that really gripped me included Proyas. In TDtCB, Proyas was a decent character, but overshadowed by Khellus, Cnaiür, Achamian, Esmenet... I first notice the Proyas' preponderance in scenes I liked, in the scene when Xinemus put down his position to go search for Achamian. Since the one other scene I could remember clearly also involved Xinemus, I first thought it was an interaction effect: they make a good pair; but Proyas kept having gripping scenes (with Cnaiür, for example), and I concluded it must be the character itself. The combination of faith, doubt, vulnarability and determination to be "fair" had a tragic element to it. In hindsight, it's not so surprising that Proyas should come into his own in a Holy War, but while reading I didn't expect it; I love surprises like that.

One thing that didn't grip me much (although it had it's moments) was Khellus' rise to the "Warrior Prophet". Things appeared to be going too smoothly; I had no direct way to assess Khellus' plans, but it appeared things were mostly going according to plan (with little disruptions, perhaps). An unfortunate effect of this was that the effect spread to the other characters associated with him. For example, Achamian's conflict whether he should contact the Mandate about Khellus had nothing of the vividness of his inner conflicts in TDtCB. This isn't so much about the qualities of the inner conflict itself (which I can't seem to assess), but about an interaction effect between the relationships between [Khellus and Achamaian] and [Khellus and Esmenet] and [Khellus and Martemus] and [Khellus and anonymous listeners] and [Khallus and ...]. Imagine one of your friends falling in love and talking only about that one special person. It may be annoying, but it's also kind of endearing, because - hehe - he's in love. But, then, all your other friends fall in love with the same person, and they all talk about him, too. Personally, I find myself working up an aversion to all they have to say. In real life, I'd get scared; in fiction I grow bored.

So, Achamian being abducted by the Scarlet Spires had me sigh with relief. "At last. Other things to thing about." Unfortunately, Esmenet had no such luck. (Even their happy moments were overshadowed by Khellus, and once Achamian was gone...)

This is not to say that what happens to them while Khellus is around is not interesting; it just takes a long time to impact, and meanwhile I read mostly for information. Esmenet is the best example. I adored her in TDtCB, but I grow curiously distant to her during TWP; she re-deems herself a bit towards the end, but not quite to the extent of TDtB. Once Achamian's gone, I can't help thinking of Khellus as a mental Cuckoo; first he evicts Achamian, then he evicts her daughter. On day he'll fly, and what's left then? I do appreciate the irony that one of Khellus' methods of "subjugation" (not sure that's the right word) is by telling her she's equal to men, pretty much abusing the very concept he topicalises.

I remember Leiali's point about Esmenet not showing a hint of slef-determination (do I remember rightly?). I tend to agree with the point, but I don't think it's primarily a gender issue; I think it's a Khellus issue. It appears to be a gender issue, because of the prevalent gender discourse, but in the context of the novel, I have to say, that I found Martemus, for example, lose interest in similar ways (it just doesn't matter as much, as with Esmenet).

Notice how I talk about Esmenet almost exclusively in terms of Khellus? Other than to resorting to utter abstraction, I don't how else to. That's what I don't quite like. Well, I can say that - despite being Khellus' wife - she develops more into his "mother"; an echo of her daughter? I don't think Achamian understands...

Curiously, the only person who gets more interesting through exposure to Khellus is Serwë. Basically, a spoiled brat sold into slavery, she doesn't know much else but to "please". She'd make the ultimate annoying girlfriend. With Khellus, she develops "submission" into an artform. Whereas I find most of the others reduced by Khellus, I find her enhanced. Whereas with most of the others Khellus goes looking for ways to play them, Serwë offers them up of her own accord. Her submission is so absolute and so deliberate that it almost seems as if she's using Khellus (not consciously, but still).

I love the way how Cnaiür continually fails to die. His madness is splendid, and the development he goes through, but he really shines in the last couple of chapters, when the Holy War is no longer the main topic, but fits back into the "big picture". Plenty of mysteries to ponder, great character interaction, optimal point of view choices (the first part of Achamian's speech from the point of view of Cnaiür). I was so relieved when the Council didn't all of a sudden believe in the consult (the Deus remained in the macchina, yay); the scene is an excellent example of how to play the Darkness (Conphas, master of jnan, triumphing over Achamian, who's just learning, not a bad try at all).

All in all, great book! Looking forward to TTT.

[Leiali]

I'm really pleased to be able to read other peoples opinions on the Warrior Prophet in such detail, it really gives a lot of food for thought and I end up finding out another way of looking at the story and characters, which just shows how excellent the book is!

Anyway, the whole gist of your post Dawnstorm fascinates me, it seems that the struggles I have with Esmenet, you are experiencing too!

I remember Leiali's point about Esmenet not showing a hint of slef-determination (do I remember rightly?). I tend to agree with the point, but I don't think it's primarily a gender issue; I think it's a Khellus issue. It appears to be a gender issue, because of the prevalent gender discourse, but in the context of the novel, I have to say, that I found Martemus, for example, lose interest in similar ways (it just doesn't matter as much, as with Esmenet).

I understand what you mean, but all the characters have a Kelhus issue really don't they? And I think what upset me was that Esmenet didn't have something as symbolic as the Gnosis to guard as a last bastion of freedom against Kelhus, she just succumbed too damned easily and I felt it was because she was a woman.

Notice how I talk about Esmenet almost exclusively in terms of Khellus? Other than to resorting to utter abstraction, I don't how else to. That's what I don't quite like. Well, I can say that - despite being Khellus' wife - she develops more into his "mother"; an echo of her daughter? I don't think Achamian understands...

I totally understand how you feel, I was constantly bewidered by her choices and it got more confusing as her role increased. The biblical undertones in the novel made me think she could have been a Lilith character but I imagine Scott has gone for traditional female roles in this rather patriarchal tale. Derwe has not gripped me in any way, and though I take your point about her Dawnstorm, she really hasn't engaged me at all. I shall be eager to read The Thousandfold Thought and see how Esmenet develops - I think part of what fascinates is not having met anyone with the charisma and manipulative powers of Kelhus, I wonder how these characters can wholly submit their selves to become extentions of this superman.

[Dawnstorm]

I understand what you mean, but all the characters have a Kelhus issue really don't they?

I don't quite understand the "but", because that's exactly my point.

And I think what upset me was that Esmenet didn't have something as symbolic as the Gnosis to guard as a last bastion of freedom against Kelhus, she just succumbed too damned easily and I felt it was because she was a woman.

That's interesting, you see the Gnosis as a "last bastion of freedom" for Achamian? To me it's something to cling to; which - in other words - means a place for Khellus to place the lever. That the thing is symbolic is a threat, I think. I'm positive that Khellus would have the Gnosis by now, if it hadn't been for the Scarlet Spires.

I do agree that Esmenet seemed to succumb too easily; but then I'd say that even more for Martemus. I don't think the women succumb more easily; although it may seem that way because of predominant social structures.

If we view what Khellus does as a game of domination, then what Khellus does to men is coaxing, luring and taking away, but what he does to women is re-directing. For example, to Achamian Khellus says "teach me, I need your knowledge, I need the Gnosis", to Esmenet he says "Love me, I'm Akka, I'm your daughter". First, do you agree with that assessment? Second, is it this difference that upsets you?

Me, I'm unsure to what extent that difference is a superficial scam; the shape of the darkness, so to say. At a basic level, the question is what makes a person, and how significant is gender. And after two books, I'm none the wiser.

Just had a thought: We haven't seen a female Dûnyain, yet, have we? Khellus, Möenghus, all the Pragmas... men. Are they, too, a partriarchal society? Hah, I wonder how the books would have looked if Khellus was a girl. ;)

Derwe has not gripped me in any way, and though I take your point about her Dawnstorm, she really hasn't engaged me at all.

Could you make that any clearer than by misspelling her name? ;)

I understand where you come from, though. She's basically a walking fetish object, even in the way she sees herself. (Unlike for most other Khellus-relationship, I'd almost describe Khellus-Serwe as symbiosis.)

I shall be eager to read The Thousandfold Thought and see how Esmenet develops - I think part of what fascinates is not having met anyone with the charisma and manipulative powers of Kelhus, I wonder how these characters can wholly submit their selves to become extentions of this superman.

I'm more interested in what shapes these powers, than in the resulting charisma. Why, knowing what they know, do the Dûnyain choose the Logos over the darkness? Notice the emotions Khellus experiences and "watches" curiously? Möenghus has been in the world for - what? - 20 years... The Thousandfold Thought.

Actually, how they can submit isn't so much the question for me, as what do they submit? The how, to me, is induced obsession. There are things they want to do, and Khellus lets them. Psychodrama.

[Scott Bakker]

I'm not a big fan of the 'overcoming one's origins' - or the 'triple O' - story arc you see regurgitated in so many narratives. It's too insincere and sentimental for me to find it interesting.

I've always thought that Serwe is the heart of the book...

Damn, I knew I should have left this thread alone. Now I'm chomping waiting to see what you all make of TTT! :D

[Leiali]

That's interesting, you see the Gnosis as a "last bastion of freedom" for Achamian? To me it's something to cling to; which - in other words - means a place for Khellus to place the lever. That the thing is symbolic is a threat, I think. I'm positive that Khellus would have the Gnosis by now, if it hadn't been for the Scarlet Spires.

I don't know, I have some faith in Achamian not succumbing so easily and giving Kelhus the secrets...or hope at least. I felt it was a last bastion of freedom because of the history of it being the only power that his school had, and not being an individual persons property, it felt that it would be so much more difficult for Kelhus to take from Achamian. I am really hoping that Achamian's doubts will be explored - the situation with Esmeand the gnosis might make him try and explore the essence of Kelhus more objectively. Or not.

If we view what Khellus does as a game of domination, then what Khellus does to men is coaxing, luring and taking away, but what he does to women is re-directing. For example, to Achamian Khellus says "teach me, I need your knowledge, I need the Gnosis", to Esmenet he says "Love me, I'm Akka, I'm your daughter". First, do you agree with that assessment? Second, is it this difference that upsets you?

I hadn't thought of it like that to be honest with you. If that is the case, how can Esmenet, who has a confidence in her abilities, and seems able to join in the discussions with the men without too many inhibitions, how can she not see that his treatment of her is so manipulative? Perhaps it is that which upsets me; that being so utterly aware of the cultural treatment of women on a daily basis, she does not have the cynicism (maybe) to take a step back and ask why this treatment? Why me?

At a basic level, the question is what makes a person, and how significant is gender. And after two books, I'm none the wiser.


Me too! It seems clear to me that what I think (without being able to articulate it comprehensively!) makes a person, particularly a woman, is not what Scott sees, and certainly not willing to allow for a Kelhus to exist either in reality or fiction. Hence my hopping up and down incensed at peoples responses to his insidious existence in their lives.

And finally - reading Scotts comments, I find it really difficult to see how Serwe can be the heart of the series (it is your series so that is fair enough!!). Since all she is seems to be a reflection of the 'love' for Kelhus that is knocking around, how is she the heart? I perhaps associate the self and any awareness of it as part of the stages of learning to love, and since she does not seem to have that awareness, her love seemed based on nothing - and I felt myself being dismissive of it because of that. How it then is that she is the heart is beyond my abilities....I always considered myself quite empathic, but in this context, It has been so hard!!

Now I'm chomping waiting to see what you all make of TTT!

Stop teasing :(

[Dawnstorm]

I don't know, I have some faith in Achamian not succumbing so easily and giving Kelhus the secrets...or hope at least. I felt it was a last bastion of freedom because of the history of it being the only power that his school had, and not being an individual persons property, it felt that it would be so much more difficult for Kelhus to take from Achamian. I am really hoping that Achamian's doubts will be explored - the situation with Esmeand the gnosis might make him try and explore the essence of Kelhus more objectively. Or not.

Take this quote:

For all the ferocity with which he'd defended the Gnosis . . . he'd forsaken the Mandate. He'd forsaken them, he realized, even before his abduction by the Scarlet Spires. He'd forsaken them for Khellus . . .
I was going to teach him the Gnosis.
Even to think this stole his breath . . .

This is after Achamian returned from the Scarlet Spires; I think he only realised this because he had a time-out from Khellus. I think, basically, the Scarlet Spires saved him.

I also think, Achamian is mistaken. He didn't forsake the Mandate for Khellus; he did it for the memory of Inrau. But there was no outer impetus to transfer the forsaking into outright treason. Khellus saw the conflict and used it.

See, the problem is wherever you want something other than you think you want there's a way for Khellus to get to you. And that's true for everyone (I suspect it's true even for every Dûnyain, too; which makes Dûnyain society an intriguing concept; a society of sociopaths that try to manipulate each other).

Consider for a moment the possibility that Khellus doesn't really want the Gnosis. It is possible; being a wizard, a sorcerer without a school, might push the probabilities beyond control. Does that mean he would desist from asking Achamian for it? I doubt it. Asking for the Gnosis means triggering a conflict; conflicted people are easier to read, and easier to "invade".

My point is, that I think that we cannot infer from the fact that Khellus asks Achamian for the Gnosis that he also wants to obtain it. He may be after the inner conflict that ensues by asking for the Gnosis. Or both.

I actually suspect that the most advantageous way to get the Gnosis would be to have Achamian contact the Mandate and have them come for him (although that would have entailed the risk of leaving the Holy War, it would have given him the chance to be sorcerer with a school).

In the pre-Scarlet-Spires-situation, I think of the Gnosis as a weakness.

I hadn't thought of it like that to be honest with you. If that is the case, how can Esmenet, who has a confidence in her abilities, and seems able to join in the discussions with the men without too many inhibitions, how can she not see that his treatment of her is so manipulative? Perhaps it is that which upsets me; that being so utterly aware of the cultural treatment of women on a daily basis, she does not have the cynicism (maybe) to take a step back and ask why this treatment? Why me?

Yeah, I think the "surrendering" goes too smoothly, too. As a general rule, outsiders tend to be more skeptic than others (and that's - I think - the main problem with "Akka & Esmi"; they're basically unable to be certain of each other's love, something happens [Achamian leaving for the library; Esmenet thinking Achamian dead and going to Khellus] and they find their insecurities confirmed). I think, the contention is that Khellus circumnavigates these doubts by sheer skill. I'm not sure I buy that, but on the other hand, who knows?

Me too! It seems clear to me that what I think (without being able to articulate it comprehensively!) makes a person, particularly a woman, is not what Scott sees, and certainly not willing to allow for a Kelhus to exist either in reality or fiction. Hence my hopping up and down incensed at peoples responses to his insidious existence in their lives.

It's a terribly confusing question for me, as I'm uncertain when (if at all) I confuse my "I think it should"s with my "I think it is"s. Even if I disagree, however, I don't find it hard to suspend disbelief for the sake of a good read. The problem is, when I suspend disbilief and buy Khellus' succes, the character interactions around him in the first 2/3 of the books become boring; it's way too smooth for my taste. Too little conflict.

And finally - reading Scotts comments, I find it really difficult to see how Serwe can be the heart of the series (it is your series so that is fair enough!!). Since all she is seems to be a reflection of the 'love' for Kelhus that is knocking around, how is she the heart? I perhaps associate the self and any awareness of it as part of the stages of learning to love, and since she does not seem to have that awareness, her love seemed based on nothing - and I felt myself being dismissive of it because of that. How it then is that she is the heart is beyond my abilities....I always considered myself quite empathic, but in this context, It has been so hard!!

I probably got more out of Serwe than you did (see above), but I couldn't really put her at the heart of the book, either. It's probably, because the Khellus connection appears to be put on hold in the book (more pricesly, in the first 2/3). Perhaps that's just my problem with 2nd parts of trilogies? They're linking books, and the pacing - most of the time - seems at the slowest.

As I said, I found myself strangely partial towards Proyas in that one.

Damn, I knew I should have left this thread alone. Now I'm chomping waiting to see what you all make of TTT!

So am I... I suspect you know what you're making of it? :p