[algernoninc]

I have a very special category of writers in my library on an imaginary shelf labeled "Cartographers" - the ones who map not only new continents and turbulent oceans, but the depths of the human psyche. Bakker strong point is not world building or action scenes (the first book is patchy at best in painting a clear geographical picture) - but his mastery of metaphor. I will not compare him to George R R Martin or Steven Erikson. His poetic style and philosophical density put him close to my cartographers:
Michael Ondaatje, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, Peter Hoeg, Milan Kundera [i'm reading now "The Impossible Lightness of Being"], Guy Gavriel Kay, Sean Russell

My favorite character is of course Akka, who has the most difficult moral choices to make, but I won't go in details, because i read the second volume right after the first and i don't want to put spoilers.

[Gildor]

First off, i have to say i loved this book. I read it about a year ago, and so i haven't replied due to my book not being in my possesion, but here it goes ...

WOW! what can i say that hasn't already been said, i'll agree with the thoughts of everyone above. What struck me throughout was the darkness that settled on my mind when i started reading this, the same happened when reading the Warrior prophet, but i found almost everything about the book was, dark, twisted, brooding, malevolent, decadent ... and it worked for me, i was really captivated by the nature of the book. Akka's constant remembrance of the return of the consult, his torture through his dreams, I was in complete sympathy really, can't wait for everyone to realise the Mandate have returned along with the No-god, hehe! I ripped through the book at breakneck speed, same with number two, it just had that compelling quality to it.

The book qgot me quite breathless, it compelled me to read as much as possible. And as a consequence i probabaly didn't soak up most of the book, i think a reread may be a good option. But Bakker is now a definitive peronnel fave.

Ok, lets relate what Achamain has actually seen, the return of the mandate and a skin spy at that ... his worst fears realised;

" What followed would haunt Xerius's dreams for the rest of his numbered days. As though gasping for some for some deeper breath, Skeaos's face unfolded like spiders's legs clutched tight about a cold torso. Twelve limbs, crowned by small wicked claws, unclenced and opened, revealing lipless teeth and lidless eyes where a face should of been. "

Yet not only is Akka faced with this, the grisly thing actually touches him;

" Like a womans long fingers, they embraced the astounded Mandate sorcerer about the head and began to squeeze. "

Well Esmi doesn't even say anything when she glimpses Akka, she has no reason not to go up to him and at least touch or talk. She then proceeds to run off and have a hissy fit, instead of chasing after him. In the context of all Akka's thoughts of her it doesn't make sense your right, but i think he was in a very very bad state.

Ah well, a small niggle, but it doesn't detract from a magnificent book! Thank you Scott Bakker!

[starry-eyed]

Well, I guess I get to be the lone voice of dissent. Bakker certainly has his redeeming qualities, but this novel just didn't do it for me.

First: Kellhus is hardly an endearing character. Amoral or not, he's just too perfect. Beyond the Consult, there is no one else to offset him. Even Cnaiur, who provided only a minor obstacle, seems to be being successfully manipulated. It's like watching the Road Runner outsmarting Wile E Coyote so many times that you start fantasizing about the little bugger getting violently squashed. (Did I say that?) I wanted the Consult to win and bring about the apocalypse. Now.

Second: Akka. Well, I did like this character. I was especially interested in seeing the dynamic between him and Inrau. 'Course, Inrau bites the dust pretty early on so there went that. As for the interplay with Esmi- that was definitely a highlight. It just wasn't enough to carry the novel for me. Then when Esmi finally meets Akka again- that felt pretty anti-climactic. I expected a little more meat than that.

Third: The treatment of women. This is a multi-cultural world, yet every culture I encountered in this novel treated their women in an almost identical fashion. Now, I can buy that some cultures would treat their women in such a manner as Serwe and Esmi are treated, but it gets a little overbearing to find that in none of the peoples we meet do we come across even one strong female character. Even in male dominated cultures, there are plenty of means for women to have influence and status: yet we don't see this anywhere. Istriya has the right role, but her portrayal is hardly favorable- she is allowed no mystery or dignity for her character. Esmi has the dignity, I suppose, and her character is as close as the novel gets to allowing strong female leads. For me this absence detracted to my ability to empathize and care about the characters in the novel.

In the end that's what ruined it for me. I just didn't care if everyone lived or died. I wasn't excited to know what happens next.

[Dawnstorm]

So am I the only one, then, who thought the non-encounter of Achamian and Esmenet at the end plausible tragedy?

I think they both acted within bounds of their characters (Achamian - blind obsession; Esmenet - confirmation of self-doubt).

It's certainly not what I want to happen, but unfortunately I can utterly believe it.

[Gildor]

I think they both acted within bounds of their characters (Achamian - blind obsession; Esmenet - confirmation of self-doubt).



I can understand how Achamian would have, but Esment really let the whispers of Sarcellus get to her. So in effect it was her self doubt, yet murmurred to her, until it eventually seethed into her sub concious to become more real than it should of been until Achamian saw through her, she then gave in to her fears.

[Dawnstorm]

I can understand how Achamian would have, but Esment really let the whispers of Sarcellus get to her. So in effect it was her self doubt, yet murmurred to her, until it eventually seethed into her sub concious to become more real than it should of been until Achamian saw through her, she then gave in to her fears.

But it's the same doubts that kept her taking customers even while Achamian was with her. That she set out to find him was an extraordinary decision, I think, and one prompted by the shock of meeting the consult thingy. Sarcellus words helped, but they didn't plant anything, they just re-affirmed what was there all along. I'd think this a plausible reaction, even if Sarcellus had not spoken. Remember how she remembers what some other whore told her, immediately after? She sees the situation in terms of her social status. She sees herself as a whore (and she knows that Achamian has never liked that part of her existence, doesn't she?) The self-doubt is old, part of her personality, and part of her perception of their relationship.

At least, that's how I see it...

[Nevyn]

Well I had issues with the underlying philosophies of R.Scott.Bakker and sadly this ruined the story for me. The Darkness That Comes Before had the potential to be a real page turner but, for me every second page was like a slap in the face. I found statements like Everything. He'd gained everything. Faith for knowledge, wisdom for cunning, heart for intellect- to be ignorant closed mindedness, and mildly insulting!
I guess this is one of those times when knowing too much about the author has in fact ruined what could have been a good book for me.
Sorry people I diddn't finish the book. I did vote for it, but the little niggles were ruining the story for me. Scott is obviously a talented writer but this effort diddn't float my boat! ;)

[Eventine]

I'm about two thirds of the way through my re-read and will comment fully on the book later, but just picked up on something I didn't get first time around:
Do the Scylvendi worship the No-God? Cnaiur mentions their god being dead, and in another section metnions that their god gave the North to the Sranc.

Did anyone else pick up on this, or am I confused?

[Erfael]

Did anyone else pick up on this, or am I confused?

I did notice that on my readthrough to, but wasn't sure whether to take that as the no-god, some other god, or what. But there were a few other things I thought might point to that, as well. I'll have to see if I can remember what they were.

[Severn]

But it's the same doubts that kept her taking customers even while Achamian was with her. That she set out to find him was an extraordinary decision, I think, and one prompted by the shock of meeting the consult thingy. Sarcellus words helped, but they didn't plant anything, they just re-affirmed what was there all along. I'd think this a plausible reaction, even if Sarcellus had not spoken. Remember how she remembers what some other whore told her, immediately after? She sees the situation in terms of her social status. She sees herself as a whore (and she knows that Achamian has never liked that part of her existence, doesn't she?) The self-doubt is old, part of her personality, and part of her perception of their relationship.

At least, that's how I see it...

Dawnstorm, I agree with you - after the incident, as it were, I sat back and thought about it. I thought - yup, Akka's life purpose has been to find the Consult, in a world that no longer believes in the Consult. He's just had the shock of his existence. His life's meaning has been confirmed and affirmed in the most horrible way. He's in a dream as it were - his physical surroundings mean nothing at that time. Isn't there some physical evidence of this type of thing occuring? Soldiers after a battle for example - can't remember how they got from place to another. Victims of car accidents going into shock and wandering off, unaware of where they are etc. I think it was quite realistic myself. In too many books characters experience life-changing events, dust themselves off and swill a jug of ale while philosophically pondering on the strangeness of life, with nary an anxious thought to be found.

As for Esmi. She loathes herself, thinks of herself as less than a dung bettle. Psychologically - if I may psycho-analyse here - people with low self-esteem are motivated by selfish actions and thoughts as a form of self-preservation and survival. Esmi simply isn't able to think to herself 'gee, I wonder what's wrong with Akka.' Rather, she thinks 'what's wrong with me? Oh that's right, I'm a whore - of course he wouldn't want me, he left me after all.'

It all makes perfect sense, and I don't think it was done for any reason to delay the advancement of their relationship - I think it was done to confirm their relationship and that it was successful.