[Erfael]

I can't think of a first novel that really left it all out on the ice (to borrow a hockey term) the way Scott did here. I felt nothing was held back.

This reminded me of something else I really quite liked about this book (not sure why it reminded me of it....the whole leaving everything out on the ice thing, I guess). So many of the grand-scope fantasy works out there really draw up most of the lines from the very beginning. You know who is good and who is bad and who is working for whom, for the most part. This book successfully left me with no clue at all who is doing what, really, by the end of it (except maybe Akka vs. the Consult). But it left me without that clue in a good way, much in that historical chronicle way. This beast could go any way still, and I find that very interesting.

Lots of things happened, but none of them really closed off roads. So often, in order to go down one path an author has to close off other paths. TDTCB was so rife with story potential that I feel like Scott can go any direction from there, without introducing anything new from this point on, without bringing any new pieces to the board. So many authors get around this closing off of roads with "the bloat." They make the story bigger and bigger and bigger after the fact because they closed off all of their roads early on. I think that the setting up of the pieces in this book was one of the best aspects of it and what makes it one of the best openings to a series that I have read. It was just so well-handled, I thought.

[Rob B]

This reminded me of something else I really quite liked about this book (not sure why it reminded me of it....the whole leaving everything out on the ice thing, I guess). So many of the grand-scope fantasy works out there really draw up most of the lines from the very beginning. You know who is good and who is bad and who is working for whom, for the most part. This book successfully left me with no clue at all who is doing what, really, by the end of it (except maybe Akka vs. the Consult). But it left me without that clue in a good way, much in that historical chronicle way. This beast could go any way still, and I find that very interesting.
Very true, but Scott manages to give all of his characters a deep passion for what they are doing, even if they are unsure of their final goals. This may sound strange, I know, but the right words aren't forming now, I suppose. All the characters are very motiviated and emotionally driven.

Still not exactly what I'm thinking, but close.

[Erfael]

Very true, but Scott manages to give all of his characters a deep passion for what they are doing, even if they are unsure of their final goals. This may sound strange, I know, but the right words aren't forming now, I suppose. All the characters are very motiviated and emotionally driven.

Still not exactly what I'm thinking, but close.

Yeah, my post didn't say exactly what I wanted it to, either, but I couldn't come up with a better way to say it. I totally agree that the characters are deep and driven, and many of them are sure of their goals. What I liked was that I, as a reader, can still see the story turning in so many different ways. Scott managed to deploy all of these great, driven characters and still keep the greater picture wide open. I guess that's more what I was trying to say.

[Boll Weevil]

I look forward to Scott obliquely referring to the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch.

..and yes that is relevant. So don't boot me around the room please.

[Eventine]

All I can say, is that for the most part, I agree. There are a few authors who put their readers into the heads of the characters, Martin of course comes to mind as the best. Scott is easily on par in this respect. I really felt Akka's character the most.

Not wanting to get into one of those big stifling discussions on author X vs author Y, but I think the way Scott and Martin approach putting us "into the heads" of characters is a lot different. Martin shows us what characters are thinking about the events and people around them, whereas Scott seems to show more of what the characters think about themselves and even their motivations - it's more introspective, and leads to Scott being able to have interesting internal monologues like Achamiam's on consistency.

As far as the Non-men/Consult issue, I was of a mind they were the same thing until the questions were raised here.

[Rob B]

Not wanting to get into one of those big stifling discussions on author X vs author Y, but I think the way Scott and Martin approach putting us "into the heads" of characters is a lot different. Martin shows us what characters are thinking about the events and people around them, whereas Scott seems to show more of what the characters think about themselves and even their motivations - it's more introspective, and leads to Scott being able to have interesting internal monologues like Achamiam's on consistency....and I never would consider Scott vs. George. Their approach is different, as you point out, and I guess I didn't clarify that quite enough.

I also suppose that as much as people (myself included) want to draw comparsions between the two, they really are different writers.

I've also been on a Martin kick for the past month, having re-read aSoIaF and now on AFFC.

[KatG]

I had a post here that was moved from elsewhere. We moved it back. (We were doing a little experimentation.) So now I'm going to try to be more in the conversation.

The Consult are the mages and generals, the leaders of the Nonmen army who are left to bring about the Second Coming. There are also Nonmen running around in the North, like the one that Kel-baby encounters. The Scylvendi worship a different god than the Nogod, but the old war suited their purposes, or at least that's the impression Cnaiur gives.

Kellhaus doesn't have any feelings for Serwe -- she is only a tool to him. Cnaiur is developing some feelings for Serwe, although it's more the love you'd have for a fine horse, and Kellhaus is trying to use this and Cnaiur knows that he is trying to do this. So it's less of a love triangle than a simple extension of the battle between the two men. Serwe, while she's got good survival instincts, is a traumatized idiot and now Kellhaus has turned her into a religious fanatic.

I too suspect that the Shriah is Kellhaus' dad, but Kellhaus is pretty sure he's elsewhere, plus Scott could be simply setting us up. (Those who have read on, don't tell us.)

Scott does not endorse any particular faith or philosophical view in the story that I can see. Instead, he takes dozens of different views and contrasts them, pits them against each other, and shows how they can lead various characters to the actions they take.

Even so, I won't be surprised if readers are very polarized about the work, and not just because it's very dark in tone and the action scenes are usually grisly. In most pre-industrial fantasy stories, you do indeed usually have the good camp and the evil camp and then you have vast grey areas where the good may have to make hard choices or act evilly in desperation or grief, or may get corrupted or tricked, or have views that are not evil directly but that cause evil. Scott has a bit of that here and there, but more or less throws that main structure out. His hero is a monster. Cnaiur, his ally and chief opponent, is a monster. Even nicer characters are riddled with self-doubt and uncomfortable flaws, like Esme and protagonist Akka, or caught up in circumstance and delusion, like Proyas and Xinemus. Instead of playing chess, with some of the pieces being taken, Scott is playing Go or something.

So a lot of people aren't going to find that very interesting. At times, I'm not sure I found it interesting, but then Scott plunges into another battle of wills and I get hooked again. I, for one, want to see if Kellhaus or Cnaiur team up with the Consult at some point. I do indeed not know which way Scott is going to jump, and that is unsettling, but an intriguing ride. I do know that Scott knows exactly what he wants to do with these characters -- the confidence is there in his prose and portrayals -- and much like Kellhaus, he's having a grand time playing with our expectations.

The ending -- I totally bought Akka not seeing Esme, because he wasn't seeing anything at that point. His vision was entirely inward, he was thinking furiously and he was in shock and still recovering from the effects of the attacker's magic. Plus he thinks she's hundreds of miles away, so a female figure somewhere in the landscape, when he's that distracted, isn't going to register as her. Her running off without trying to speak to him I admit I found harder to buy. I thought it was a touch contrived and a weaker moment than it could have been. But, I agree with Dawnstorm that it wasn't out of character. Esme has never been sure that the mage loves her, or does so in a way to want to have her with him. She'd gone to him anyway to try and help him, but misreading the look of horror on his face as directed toward her, she has her fantasies ripped away, and feels angry and betrayed. She's not a confronting person, not yet anyway since that's not how you survive, so instead, she runs. Also, we've been given clues that she may have been magically effected by her encounter with the Consult. So, it was a bit off, but close enough for me to let him skate on it.

[Jack]

I've also been on a Martin kick for the past month, having re-read aSoIaF and now on AFFC.

Rob, we have special forums dedicated specifically to certain authors, including a George R.R. Martin forum, which can be found here (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24).

I'm going to have to ask you to confine your discussion to the topic designated by the title of the thread, which in this case is this month's book discussion, R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before.

If this type of off-topic discussion continues, I will be forced to petition a mod to lock the thread.

Now that we've gotten that unpleasantness out of the way, I would like to say I've really enjoyed the discussion of the non-men/consult. I too kind of assumed they were the same. The whole idea of what exactly the consult is, what was that hideous thing that visited Esmi in the brothel, what was that skin spy - have been that most major thing that has just wriggled my brain. I hope much is revealed in TTT.

I'm finding it hard to participate in this discussion because I've already read The Warrior Prophet. The fact that I'm having this difficulty, even discussing the motives and feelings of the characters, says something about these characters dynamism and compexity.

[Rob B]

Rob, we have special forums dedicated specifically to certain authors, including a George R.R. Martin forum, which can be found here (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24).

I'm going to have to ask you to confine your discussion to the topic designated by the title of the thread, which in this case is this month's book discussion, R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before.

If this type of off-topic discussion continues, I will be forced to petition a mod to lock the thread.Getting uppity in our britches are we? Go eat some doughnuts Homer. J/K ;)

[Hereford Eye]

Having recently completed Darkness and now well into another fantasy novel that has me completely hooked, I can now look back at Darkness and put words to feelings.
I came away from the book impressed with RSB's talent but also puzzled. I often became frustrated while reading the book but I always went back to find out what happened next. Maybe, he touched the voyuer in me; I don't know. What I feel now, after time for things to rustle around in my thoughts, is that he has a talent similar to that of Tom Clancy or - from the old days - Allen Drury. He is writing a sprawling political thriller with magic replacing technology and he is pulling it off well but...and here's the rub...sprawling political thrillers are not what I expect to find in fantasy. That doesn't mean it's bad; it means it doesn't work that well for me.
All his characters are flawed; there are no saints so that, much like government elections, you are always choosing between the lesser of two evils. I recognize there are damned few saints in the world but there are a few. I wish that one of these characters had come out a little more on the positive side of the ledger.
Being me, and a veteran of service in 1960s Korea, Esme resonated most. Of all the characters, she held the most verisimilitude for me. Hope she lives long and prospers.