[clockwirk]

I don't know if you all remember, but last year after Bush won the election Martin wrote a very condemning and frankly depressing editorial on his website about the election results. While I was reading AFFC, I couldn't help notice that Cersei and her administration were running into some of the problems the Bush administration has had to deal with, or has at least been accused of having to deal with: Unpopular Multi-Faceted war campaign, not enough troops, not enough money, not listening to close advisors, surrounding yourself with "yes" men, losing the trust of those around you, torture, etc...

Does anybody else see this? And, if so, do you think GRRM did it on purpose?

(I don't want to start a huge political flame war. That can get ugly. I'm just pretty certain that there are some parralells between Martins view of GWB, and Cersei Lannister.)
Thoughts?

[werewolfv2]

some parralells between Martins view of GWB, and Cersei Lannister.)
Thoughts?

off wit 'er head!

[OberynMartell]

Mistakes of similiar kinds are made by regimes in similiar circumstances. Cersei is not GWB, and neither is she Caligula, Herod, Hitler or any number of political leaders who faced the difficulties you mentioned.

People who are familiar with history (like GRRM) are familiar with certain recurring patterns. Dany's situation could equally be compared to GWB's (or to Abraham Lincoln's).

The reason this thread is a bad idea is that it touches on current political issues that many forum members will feel passionately attached to. I visit SFFworld to get away from political issues.

[Hobbit]

Whilst politics are clearly part of GRRM's world, and whilst his writing may or may not include parallels with the real world, it's at this point that we remind members that politics is not something we discuss on an sf and fantasy site.

As Oberyn correctly pointed out:

The reason this thread is a bad idea is that it touches on current political issues that many forum members will feel passionately attached to. I visit SFFworld to get away from political issues. We're not denouncing passion here :D, but reminding people that we don't get into political debates.

Thank you!

Hobbit

[clockwirk]

That's cool. My main point was to discuss whether or not something that GRRM is obviously passionate about was spilling over into his books. Regardless of my own personal opinion, or even the facts, GRRM feels strongly about something political, and political intrigue is a huge part of his books. I don't want to discuss politics per se, only GRRM's perception of politics.
However, I can see how it would be hard to separate your own political views from such a debate, so you can close it down if you want. On the other hand, the two most controversial topics for discussion are politics and religion, and religion gets a lot of air time around here.

[sic's mom]

I think one of Martin's great passions in life has to be politics. What are these stories anyway? Completely political. I think it is only natural for what is going on in the world to spill over into his stories a bit. But as long as he doesn't preach and try to make us believe what he does I don't have a problem with it. Lets just hope he doesn't get like Goodkind and get on his soapbox. (And before you all start I love the SOT series). But then again politics is like many other things in life. It goes in cycles and that may be all that Martin is trying to show. The message in all of this is to learn from our past mistakes, but humans being what we are I doubt it will ever happen.

[Hobbit]

Yeah. Don't think we were disagreeing with your point about GRRM, who I understand is no great lover of the present US president, but there was/is a risk of the thread degenerating into a 'I love X / hate Y' political discussion.

(See the Goodkind Forum for good, (or perhaps bad!), examples of this!)

the two most controversial topics for discussion are politics and religion, Agreed.

and religion gets a lot of air time around here.

To be fair, problems with the religious aspects do not raise their head/s too often. If there is any religious discussion, it is usually in the Author's Forums Annex, where the Author has a little more control over what happens. Gary Wassner has led some great discussions about it's relevance in Fantasy, for example.

Where they have appeared around the site, (and we have let some of these pass recently, though they are always checked and usually under close supervision) most of our members who choose to be involved in such discussions have usually been respectful and it has led to some fascinating points raised. So we have let them run where we can.

The politics does seem to bring out the worst, though.

Thanks for your understanding.

Hobbit

[Cat Snow]

I would be truly surprised if GRRM ever tries to impact the views of his readers, politically or otherwise. The glory of his books, IMO, is that there is no obvious "right or wrong, good vs evil, black and white" type of situation... Martin shows many, if not all, of the sides so that the reader not only gets to make those decisions for themselves, but they also have the opportunity to change opinions as the characters and story evolves. Much more REALISTIC, I think. He seems to write with a very open mind, and he also seems to write as if the story is already written in his mind... not as if he is continuously scrambling to make all the pieces fit (like some authors who shall remain unnamed!)

Martin is so good at what he does! :cool:

[Evil Agent]

I agree, I don't think he will really put it into his books (although I have not yet read Feast). However, Martin (like any sane American or human) was extremely distraught and heartbroken when Bush was re-elected, as he clearly stated on his website.

I personally think it would be hilarious if he somehow drew Bush into his stories, perhaps by slightly altering the description or mannerisms of, say, Walder Frey. Walder W. Frey perhaps. Then we'd have even more reason to cheer when the Freys get what's coming to them. :)

[Obtuse]

However, Martin (like any sane American or human) was extremely distraught and heartbroken when Bush was re-elected.....

Implying that those who were not distraught and heartbroken are clearly out of their minds.

I believe we have here, a prime example of why political discussions just don't work well on this board.

Incidentally, I am neither agreeing, nor disagreeing with the implication; only making an observation.

As for the topic at hand...I'm not really a fan of overt references to current events in the fantasy I read. Sometimes when things like that are too obvious, I get kicked out of the story and it significantly reduces my enjoyment. I haven't read Feast yet, so I can't make any specific comments about the book. Given what I know of Martin, however; I expect any parallels that exist will be well-done and sufficiently subtle.