[Woadwarrior]

Greetings and salutations to all.

As you can tell, I'm brand new to this forum and the people here. I've been writing stories and fanfiction for quite a while but it's only recently when I decided to get serious and perhaps try to reach a broader and better audience. Since everyone here is an author or reader (and often times, both), I would have to say that you guys would be a great people to be around when I'm trying to write something creative and entertaining.

Which brings me to the point of this thread. Now I'm am a guy (like many here) who has many gripes with many aspects of the fantasy genre (as well as many Fantasy RPGs, both of these are closely related) which made me want to try something new in the fantasy genre instead of just criticise and rant about it every now and then. I decided to create a sort of sub-genre of 'modern' fantasy. When I say this is 'modern' fantasy I'm not refering to the fantasy subgenre of contemporary fantasy, which is based in real-world locations (or disguised real-world locations but make it clear it is based the real-world). What I'm basically talking about is a fantasy world with modern technology and ways of thinking.

Take this for example. You have a completely fantasy continents, nations, cities and races, but all have advanced as we have in real life (as opposed to remaining totally static for an eternity) and have cars, airplanes, radioes, telephones, etc, etc. So you'd have an Elf driving to work in a sports car every morning after a breakfast of corn flakes and listening to the morning news on the radio, working for tourism agency that specializes in cruises and safaris.

I hope you understood the image I'm trying to portray here.

So here's my question: How many people here have heard of a genre like this? If you have, how often do you see it?

I should mention that the only place where I've seen something like this is in the computer game "Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura" which is a mix of High fantasy and Victorian-era steampunk. Of course, my world would have no magic in it at all, but otherwise retain every other trapping of fantasy (Geography, race, you get the idea).

So does anyone have anything to say? I patiently await your responses.

[Monty Mike]

Well, I'm intrigued by what you've said. I am not personally aware of anything in the sense that you attribute 'modern' fantasy. I'd be open to reading some material if and when you produce it, just PM or email me (though I'll keep an eye on the thread). However, you'd have to be careful not to make it come across as stupid or purely comic. If you invested time and effort into creating a serious story with interesting 'believable' (and that's the key) characters and history, then it could be revolutionary! :D

I'm interested to see what other members think.

[tomfoster]

Probably the closest thing to this currently in existance would be Post modern fantasy. As far as I'm aware no-one has produced work merging the stereotypical icons of fantasy with contemporary levels of technology and society in a prosaic manner (eg driving to work etc). Some books have come close (Tad Williams excellent War of the Flowers stand alone takes a very contemporary, rationalist approach to the traditional elements of "Faerie" stories), and for some reason the general sense is familiar. If I remember any specific examples, I'll let you know.

T

[Ouroboros]

Tad William's 'The War of the flowers' occurred to me as well. Likewise Michael Swanick's 'The Iron Dragon's Daughter', Michael De Larrabeiti's 'The Borribles' and a lot of other urban fantasy stuff from Gaiman, De Lint etc. Even Zelazny's 'The Mask of Loki'.

I think Woadwarrior's premise has some interesting angles. Maybe look at stuff like at what point do the basic archetypes and motiffs of fantasy become totally irrelevant in an industrialised society with universal sufferage and whatnot.

Would it constitute a new sub-genre of writing though, distinct from urban fantasy? I'd need a lot more convincing.

[Hobbit]

Welcome Woadwarrior!

A side point, but one which may help you/us further, as I think you might be going about this the wrong way:
Why is it important to put your ideas into a genre?

Time and time again I hear from writers that it is important to write what you want to write. It doesn't matter what genre it is; if you write with enthusiasm and interest then it will find a place relevant.

As we say time and time again on these boards - the use of genre is a convenient (and sometimes not convenient!) means of categorisation.

If you start writing for a particular genre because you think it will be published / easier to sell / make money / gain you status, then you'd be doing it for the wrong reasons.

What is more important is that you write what you think is right.

A good book is a good book, regardless of genre. Write the thing and don't be too concerned about what genre it's in!

And on that note, as a newcomer, can I further suggest a look round the writing Forums - you might get more informed responses than mine!

Hobbit

[KatG]

Sub-categories form when there are a number of authors doing stories that are similar in content in some way -- setting, type of magical elements, or sometimes tone, such as comic fantasy, and people and publishers then try to group them as an easy reference handle. They can be very broad or very specific. Recently, there has been a proliferation of new sub-categories that are a bit more specific than the old ones used to be, though all of the old terms are still very much in use.

Modern fantasy is a term that is often applied to category fantasy as a whole, to distinguish it from earlier fantasies that were written before there was a category fantasy market, and thus it doesn't work too well as the name for a new sub-category. Contemporary fantasy is a very broad category applied to all fantasy stories that have a contemporary or post-industrial setting -- anything from the Enlightenment era on up essentially. All fantasies set in a pre-industrial setting -- 1600's on back -- are considered to be in the epic fantasy sub-category.

In the 1980's, cyberpunk sf was very popular and sff publishers wanted to take advantage of that, so contemporary fantasy was often called urban fantasy as well as or instead of contemporary. The term urban fantasy declined in popularity as time went on, because a lot of the contemporary fantasists weren't necessarily using very urbanized settings, so now it is often used to mean contemporary fantasy stories with a very urban city setting. But use of this term has never really coalesced into a distinct sub-category (though that might happen in the future.)

So your story, in which you have an alternative, imaginary realm that has modern, post-industrial technology, would technically be a contemporary fantasy story. Unless you were doing something very humorous or satirical, in which case, it would be in the comic fantasy sub-category. With me so far?

There are and have been a lot of fantasy stories where someone from one realm, often from our modern world, has been transported by magical or supernatural means to another world/realm. Tad Williams' "War of the Flowers," Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter," Gaiman's "Neverwhere," and some of Charles de Lint's stories are all of this type. Some of them have the person or persons going to a pre-industrial realm and some of them have the person or persons going to a post-industrial or modern realm. Because of the great variety of settings and tone in these stories, some of them being comic and a few of them dark fantasy, or maybe just because nobody ever thought of a really good name -- alternate realm transport fantasy? -- they've never been lumped into a sub-category of their own.

Now, you may be planning an alternate realm transport fantasy where a person or persons gets transported to your modern elf world. In which case, reading Williams, Gaiman, and Swanwick's books might be a good idea. But it sounds like instead you may just be thinking of doing a completely imaginary world, as is often done in epic fantasy, and having it have elves and modern technology, with no other realm -- current day Earth or otherwise -- involved.

If so, no other story comes immediately to my mind as a reference. However, you may want to check out Glen Cook's comic fantasy Garrett P.I. series, which does something in the same direction, though the setting is more or less pre-industrial. You might also want to check out China Mieville, some of Jeff Vandermeer's work or K.J. Bishop's "Etched City," all of which do something like what you are talking about, but in a very dark, noir way. These authors and others have been dubbed with a new sub-category name of New Weird. But to be New Weird requires a noir tone, which may or may not be what you're after.

As for coming up with a new sub-category name, authors have tried to do so and you might be successful, as there are a lot of new, hopeful terms circulating out there. But mostly, authors have sub-category names thrust upon them. :)

[Woadwarrior]

Thanks for the replies, guys. :)

Would it constitute a new sub-genre of writing though, distinct from urban fantasy? I'd need a lot more convincing.

OK, I'll try to state it once more. In your average contemporary fantasy, it takes place on Earth with some magical elements (like in Buffy the vampire slayer) that usually leak into the world by some means. What I'm refering to is the fact that the world was, at one time, just as in your average fantasy, with magic, dragons, huge flying castles and all that sterotypical bunk, but as time past, magic faded and mundane technology advanced and it became what it became.

I should mention that I'm writing an extremely simplified version of what I'm trying to portray. The world that I have in mind is still in the making, and I intend it to be very complex and indepth (in particular as to why magic dissapeared while many other aspects of fantasy survived). There are some things that forbid me from working on my world at the moment, but they will be resolved shortly and I can get back to work on it.

And by the way, you're assuming that it would always take place in an urban setting with your average adventure. The ideas that I have in my for stories are military in theme, and could feature a lot of action and 'save the world from those guys hell bent on conquring the world' type of thing. It actually is based a lot off World War 2, but some changes. Interestingly enough, I believe that I have already made enough backstory on my world, spanning several thousands of years, just so I can make a plausable reason for a war like that to occur! :D

I used the whole 'elf in the big city' thing just an example. There are no Elves in my stories since I think they're too silly for my tastes. Its gonna be more along the lines of 'fuzzy catperson fighter pilot/commando going through a huge, life transforming military exploit' of course, I'll also be creating several other, original races for my use instead of use existing types.

A side point, but one which may help you/us further, as I think you might be going about this the wrong way:
Why is it important to put your ideas into a genre?

It isn't! The only reason why I'm asking is because I'm wondering if I'm actually into something original for a change. That's all, this is just about pleasant conversation and 'do you guys think I'm on to something good' type of thread to see if my ideas are interesting or not.

Time and time again I hear from writers that it is important to write what you want to write. It doesn't matter what genre it is; if you write with enthusiasm and interest then it will find a place relevant.


And I WILL be writing. In fact, today, when I get back from work and the gym, I'll be starting on the second (and final) chapter of my short 'primer' story and when its finished, I'll be polishing them off a bit before posting them over here. I'll PM anyone here who is interested of it. :)

I intend to write an entire series of small novellas and whatnot about my world, and if I have the right encouragement and support from you guys (mostly just reading them and being interested! :) ) They will all be completed in due time. :)

Modern fantasy is a term that is often applied to category fantasy as a whole, to distinguish it from earlier fantasies that were written before there was a category fantasy market, and thus it doesn't work too well as the name for a new sub-category. Contemporary fantasy is a very broad category applied to all fantasy stories that have a contemporary or post-industrial setting -- anything from the Enlightenment era on up essentially. All fantasies set in a pre-industrial setting -- 1600's on back -- are considered to be in the epic fantasy sub-category.

I'm kinda aware of the original definition of the modern fantasy ideal that was created by J.R.R Tolkein (although he's not the first by any stretch, there have been plenty of writers doing that ever since the 1920's and 30's), but anyway, if that's how you define contemporary fantasy, then I guess my stories would fall underneath that catagory, but all the definitions of contemporary fantasy that I've read don't seem to match what you're saying, still, I'll go on with it. :)

So your story, in which you have an alternative, imaginary realm that has modern, post-industrial technology, would technically be a contemporary fantasy story. Unless you were doing something very humorous or satirical, in which case, it would be in the comic fantasy sub-category. With me so far?

I guess so.

There are and have been a lot of fantasy stories where someone from one realm, often from our modern world, has been transported by magical or supernatural means to another world/realm. Tad Williams' "War of the Flowers," Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter," Gaiman's "Neverwhere," and some of Charles de Lint's stories are all of this type. Some of them have the person or persons going to a pre-industrial realm and some of them have the person or persons going to a post-industrial or modern realm. Because of the great variety of settings and tone in these stories, some of them being comic and a few of them dark fantasy, or maybe just because nobody ever thought of a really good name -- alternate realm transport fantasy? -- they've never been lumped into a sub-category of their own.

Now, you may be planning an alternate realm transport fantasy where a person or persons gets transported to your modern elf world. In which case, reading Williams, Gaiman, and Swanwick's books might be a good idea. But it sounds like instead you may just be thinking of doing a completely imaginary world, as is often done in epic fantasy, and having it have elves and modern technology, with no other realm -- current day Earth or otherwise -- involved.

There is no realm transportation in my concept. There are humans in my world (the vast majority, composing 95% of the world's population).

And yes, I do intend to have epic adventures of sorts (as I mentioned earlier, mainly military themed or at least with a giant war in the background) with a completely imaginary world and modern technology. Also I should mention once again that there are no elves in my world, I simply used them as an example since they would be convienent.

To end this post, I just want to say that I emphasis realism and believabilty in my stories, and this is why I invest a lot of time and money in trying to get the details right. The readers may not notice any of the effort I'm trying to place into my world, the macro and microenconomics of it and the general politics, but I hope it will be taken into account of it. To top it all, my protagonists, while skillful and tough individuals, have no world-shattering abilities and would probably contribute to my world as much as a highly-competant police officer, soldier, or architect. I don't intend to make a 'chosen' one type of character on whom the entire existance of the world depends on. In fact, I will hold it clear that even if my most heroic characters died at birth, it would be pretty much non-issue in the long run of events.

[Brys]

Some magic realist novels seem to apply to that description - when I was reading you'd have an Elf driving to work in a sports car
it instantly made me think of Mikhail Bulgakov's Master and Margarita - one of the main characters is a large cat called Behemoth, set in contemporary (1930s) Russia. Charles de Lint's Newford series may also fit.
Michael Swanwick's Iron Dragon's Daughter is another good one of this type.
There's certainly quite a bit of the victorian style fantasy - authors like China Mieville and Ian R Macleod are great examples of that.

What I haven't seen though is epic post-industrial fantasy, which seems to be what you are proposing - which is a very interesting concept.

[Beleg]

So you'd have an Elf driving to work in a sports car every morning after a breakfast of corn flakes and listening to the morning news on the radio, working for tourism agency that specializes in cruises and safaris.

There are lots of examples of this.

some books that haven't been mentioned so far,

Terry Windling's Borderland shared universe (Emma Bull's Finder, for example)

Simon R. Green's Nightside books

Nina Kiri Hoffman (sp?) books

If you are willing to include vampires/werewolves then there's the whole subgenre of modern paranormal romance/fantasy.

[Gargy]

Well you have the whole steampunk genre that incorporates more modern aspects into the story. As previously mentioned you have the vampire novels that are fantasy at heart. You have books like Gaimans American Gods that puts old gods in a modern setting. There are a lot of books that mix sci-fi and fantasy. And not to forget Star Wars that i actually consider to be more of a fantasy story than a sci-fi story.

As for your specific idea about the disappearance of magic, it is a very common element in many books, though not necessarily coupled with a modern setting. For instance in the start of GRRM's A song of Ice and Fire, magic has all but disappeared with the dragons. These stories are usually about the return of magic to the lands.

But i'd say go with whatever you would like and dont worry too much about if its a new sub-genre or not. The best writing comes when you dont worry about that but write what you want to write without worrying about fitting into or not fitting into a genre. There will be plenty of time for you and others to label it into a genre after its finished.