[Eventine]

What is fantasy? What seperates a fantasy book from sci fi? From run of the mill fiction?
In another topic, AzureHero stated that Anne Rice's vampire books weren't fantasy.
Why not? They have fantastical elements don't they?
But is that enough for it to be fantasy?
Just because it is set in the real world doesn't exclude it, there are several examples of fantasy being set in the real world (Brooks' Demon books is one).

There's a few questions to che on, so lets see what everyone thinks fantasy really is.

[FitzChivalry]

Imo, fantasy is what can never really happen and that's the main difference between sci fi and fantasy. Sci Fi can and may happen sometime in the future, and many sci fi books predictions did come true.


About Anne Rice's, some call that genre of fantasy Urban Fantasy, fantasy that happens in our world, in modern cities and such. Laurell K. Hamilton's books are in that category too. Some call it Horror, but what is Horror? i say Horror is anything that can scare us, and it doesn't have to contradict other definitions, you can have a horror book in fantasy, in sci fi or in gardenning.

[Lani]

I always thought that fantsy is different from sci-fi because it has it's own world in which ours doesn't exist. Unfortunately it didn't work for some books, but I still think that the idea of fantasy is idea of another world. And I don't take other planets in sci-fi as other worlds even if they are, because there still an option that ours are among them.(And usually it is so)

[Rob B]

Few examples of the simplistic differences:

1.) In fantasy, when people travel long distances, they either use horses or boats VS in science fiction, when they travel, they use space ships.

2.) In fantasy when people fight they use swords and magic VS in science fiction when people fight they use lasers/guns.

3.) In fantasy powers are harnessed and utilized through magic VS in science fiction powers are harnessed and utilized through science/technolgy.

Essentially, though I think most of you guys have it right, science fiction is what we believe that can happen or proved (science) in our world/universe and fantasy is what, for the most part, cannot happen and occurs on a word SIMILAR (magic) to our own.

Then there are writers like C.S. Friedman who blend the two genres (Coldfire Trilogy) who blurr the lines of categorization.

I think the best fantasies take extrodinary settings and use the settings to highlight human struggles and ideals in a more literal sense; taking the human element and placing it in a fantastical setting & using the fantastical elements as a metaphor for real life struggles.

That said; I think Heinlein or A.C. Clarke, can't remember which one right now, said something like "Advanced science and technology would be so complex that it would be indistinguishable from magic." that is not an exact quote, just a paraphrase.

And no, Anne Rice maybe considered borderline urban fantasy, but she has really been classified (bookstores, magizines like Locus, etc.) as horror.

When I think Urban fantasy, I think of Charles de Lint and Neil Gaiman not Anne Rice.

---Then again that's just my opinion and I could be wrong

[Giarc]

I think this whole conundrum is analagous to the question asked in biological circles "How do you define a species?". SF is not actually plausible....for example, faster than light travel cannot happen in the real universe to the best of our knowledge. Is choosing to believe this becomes possible really any different than suspended disbelief when it comes to magical powers? What's the difference between many magical powers and esp, telekinetic, empathic powers in SF books?
Personally I think the only real distinction that can be made is fiction and non-fiction. Thereafter you're into shades of grey. If you imagine the various genres of fiction forming a 2 dimensional plane and that the location of each genre is represented by imaginary points on that plane, then it's fairly easy to see that individual books can be located at any position on that plane. Sometimes they fall close to a particular genre (eg typical fantasy), sometimes they fall between 2 or more of these imaginary genre centers (eg the part fantasy, part SF books we can all mention). Essentially, fiction is a continuum and to try and partition it is probably a futile effort. Though heavens knows we humans love pigeon-holing everything we can get our hands on. Maybe our drive to label and know the mystical and unknowable drove the magic from the earth millenia ago http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Eventine]

Slightly off topic, but,
Giarc - didn't you hear they made light go 300 times faster than it normally would???
But that was a great analogy with the planes. I believe Herbert also said something about the distinction between high technology and magic being only understanding as well.

Lani, if you think of fantasy as being seperate wrolds, what do you think of books like Brooks Shannara series that are set in a very post apocalyptic Earth (1000's of
years on), but which are obviously fantasy novels. Does this change your classification of them to sf?

I have to disagree slightly with FitzChivalry though, I think Horror does slightly have it's own genre, and lends itself out to others. Thus you get Horror-SF, Horror-Fantasy, Horror-Gardening. Horror is a book written with the intention to create fear.

But as Giarc showed us, there is no neat pigeonhole we can put everything into. Genre are just broad stereotypes that we use to try and categorise books. Thus Anne Rice is Horror (although could be fantasy), Brooks is Fantasy (although could be sf) and Herbert is sf (although could be philosophy)

[Lani]

Eventine
It doesn't change my clssification.
a) I said in my reply that it doesn't work for every book.
b) I have never read Shanara series, but I heard a lot about it and I understand so that their world in that far future doesn't resemble much to our world or our world in forseen future. You already can consider Shanara world as something else.
c) My definition of the world doesn't only include the planet itself, but also people and some other things. I definetely don't see magic as part of our world.

Overall, I think that some books are a little more difficult to categorize than others(that doesn't include Shanara). There are books that so close on the border line it is not possible to decide, but other books have their features, so lets stop on categorizing only them.

P.S. After all I don't really believe in categorizing http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Pluvious]

The use of magic is probably the thing that most distinguishes fantasy from science fiction. In science fiction we may not be able to travel faster than the speed of light, but the unexplained possibilities of worm holes or black holes causes many to believe the potential to move through space is there. Plus much science fiction just has traveleres put to sleep during a voyage.

So I guess science fiction is any higher technology atmosphere that does not have magic. That would be my definition. And I consider Star Wars more fantasy because it has magic. But that is a clear case of mixing the two genres.

[FitzChivalry]

Well, that's pretty much what i said. what's the name for what will never happen on our world?
Magic.
Fantasy without magic is not fantasy.

[Giarc]

Eventine, *grin* for the sake of quibbling, they made /light/ go faster than it normally would...I was, however, referring to faster than light /travel/. Meaning you and me reaching the distant galaxies faster than light can travel there. Anyhow, glad you liked the analogy http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif
Pluvius and Fitzy...please explain how magic is objectively any different than extreme high technology? For example, McCafffrey's Tower series is considered to be SF. They use 'talents' such as telekinesis, and telepathy. Why couldn;t this be considered 'magic'?
Lani, I'm not saying that the use of genres isn't sometimes helpful, all I'm saying is that the attempt to pigeonhole every book is fatally flawed. Sure some books are 'typical' of a genre, but other fall between genres. It will be impossible to assign neat little categories for every book.
Just an opinion http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif