[Metosblat]

Lord of the rings to me seemed to be missing one major thing. A bad guy! Sauron never really did anything in the whole series. Some of you would probably say that neither does the Shai'tan in WOT, but Jordan came up with a reason. The dark one is sealed up. Could anyone give me some info on what subtext i might be missing in LOTR concerning Sauron, because in my eyes he did nothing at all. I can't seem to take a bad guy seriously unless he does something. I find that the whole Bad guy doing nothing while all his minions do his bidding quite incredilous.
take all our real life villians for example.
Hitler, stalin, George W Bush (joke)
they were all in there getting things done, winning the war or killing the jews.
Their the kind of villians that would scare me. I want to be able to put myself in a characters position and be scared. What do you think?

[Macros]

No big bad guy actually ever does anything. That's what the minions are for. Hitler just gave orders to his generals who relayed them to his armies. True he came up with the orders but he wasn't actually in there, getting his hands dirty.

Right now Shaitan is just a plot thread waiting to be used when the conclusion finally rolls around. Same as with Torak in the Belgariad, the Sithi bad guy in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and various sorcerors in the Conan books.

[allanon]

Metosblat, you are right.I think that fantasy
without bad guy is not a very good fantasy.
That's why my favourite fantasy are the "Sha-nnara"series-because of the bad guys-Warlock
Lord,the Reaper,Rimer Dal...

[wastra]

Sauron really took his cues from his past boss, Morgoth. In the first and second ages of Middle Earth, sauron was not yet come into his full power, and served Morgoth until his downfall.

In that time, Sauron was a shapechanger, a werewolf, to be exact. In these ancient days, he was very active.

In the downfall of Numenor, however, Sauron was destroyed in body, and his spirit was all that returned to Middle Earth. It took him centuries to regain a bodily form, which was destroyed in turn b ythe last alliance. So twice, Sauron was physically destroyed and his spirit fled.

So by the time his third ascension to power comes around in Lord of the Rings, he's probably a bit leary of jumping up and taking action himself. instead, he uses the power in him, the ability to bend the evil minons of Middle Earth to his will. It is solely his will that holds the many tribes of orcs and many races of men in control, so that is where his time is spent.

Pippin, in the tower of Gondor in Minas Tirith, heard that "one came whom they feared", and at first was afraid that Sauron himself had arrived. Denethor mentioned that Sauron would not come himself until all was lost or all was won, inferring that his will was better spent ordering his armies as if he were some grand chess player. the pieces do the work, he simply provides the will and strategy.

In the other works of Tolkien, he makes it clear that the power of these beings was not the ability to wipe out armies with a mere glance- Morgoth himself, the greatest of Middle Earth's Gods (called Valar), of whom Sauron was only a servant, or demi god (called a Maia) was almost defeated in hand-to-hand combat by a Noldor elf. In that battle, (the last time he ever set foot outside his great fortress), he was shamed in front of his captains. You see, Sauron would have more to lsoe than gain by stepping outside of Barad-Dur and trying to fight in person. he had nothign to gain, as he thought he would win without taking such a chance anyway- only the destruction of the ring prevented his victory.

Plus, tolkien liked the idea of the 'shadow of terror' idea of the villain- we are left to create our own ideas of Sauron.

[allanon]

Wastra,this is like Murmandamus and Draken-Korin,but Murmandamus is really bad guy,not just a name.

[Macros]

*Spoilers for the Serpentwar Saga*

********************************************
********************************************
********************************************


Actually, Murmandamus and all of the Valheru (especially Draken Korin) were just minions of a higher power. Unwitting minions but minions they were.

[This message has been edited by zedd (edited November 25, 2000).]

[allanon]

Well,sorry Macros,but here in Bulgaria SerpentwarSaga was not published.Again,I'm
sorry.

[allanon]

Well,sorry Macros,but here in Bulgaria SerpentwarSaga was not published.Again,I'm
sorry.

[Bardos]

I like it when the villain does thing (*really* villainious!!). I don't there is something wrong with the villain who just sit around and gives orders, but I want more action from a villain. I want to see him/her move as the hero(s) in a novel. It is just my opinion.
And btw, I hate the Dakr One in Jordans books...

[Macros]

Don't worry, Allanon. I hope the spoilers were not that big of a shock. There's plenty more that happens in those books.

Bardos, your preference is noted but many fantasy books actually go against it. That is why, for the most part, secondary villains like the Forsaken are created.

P.S. Sorry about extending the text on this page but that single line of asterisks was supposed to be three lines.