[keller8899]

Hey, I don't know if you guys noticed this, but I read ASOIAF over the summer and this fall. Then, being and avid reader and having nothing to read, I made a desperate trip to B&N and picked up Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy, which I also love and highly reccommend. The thing that kind of bothers me, and I'm not sure which one came first, is how the connection that FitzChivalry has with his wolf, Nighteyes, in the Farseer Trilogy is very similar to the connection that Bran has with his wolf, Summer. I mean, there are so many things you can do in a fantasy story that I think it's a little rediculous that both of these authors have characters having this intimate mental connection with wolves. It's not even like they are having these connections with different animals, it's the same thing. I also was reading the Eragon series which my brother gave me for Christmas last year. I'm a die-hard lover of LOTR and found Eragon to be disturbingly similar to that with elves that live in the woods, dwarves that live in a mountain kingdom and mindless warriors that follow commands with out question (urgals in Eragon and orcs in LOTR). Ok, so now I've kind of gotten off the topic of ASOIAF, but the fact that I love reading fantasy so much and that I've found so many similarities when the possible story lines are practically endless bothers me a lot.

[Stevenator]

Yeah, there's a lot of copying and counter-copying in High Fantasy - it is almost a characteristic of that sub-genre. Genres are designed to sell. When a reader picks out a High Fantasy book, the expectation is that there will be some age-old themes (elves that live in the woods, dwarves that live in a mountain kingdom) in new skin. Ideas are shared and borrowed and built upon, ultimately producing a few authors with unique twists and approaches. It is those authors that truly earn their pay check and deserve all the credit in the world.

ASOIAF is a worthy work because it distorts the black-and-white plot structure starkly established by Tolkien. JRRT has had the most influence over modern High Fantasy, yet in fact the roots go much deeper (such as William Morris, who in turn influenced Tolkien).

Give Eragon its props for being the dream of a fifteen year old boy who had his head in Shannara. As a result, the work is a poor carbon copy. This will not prevent a whole new generation, however, from rushing to the theaters tomorrow and falling in love with High Fantasy for the first time.

[keller8899]

I didn't mean to knock the Eragon series. I actually enjoyed it a lot and the fact that a 15 year old wrote it inspired me to try my hand at writing (though I'm afraid I'm not very good). My point was just that there seem to be so many ways that authors could bring in characteristic themes that it's a shame there isn't always as much variety seen as I could imagine there being.

[Dyloot]

I don't believe that Hobb or Martin copied from each other. Neither invented the man/wolf theme, so I'm guessing that they both had their own influences. Hobb released Assassin's Apprentice in 1995, a year earlier than Martin, but Martin has said in interviews that he wrote Dire Wolf chapter from A Game of Thrones years before he finished the book.

If you think you've found a similarity between Hobb and Martin, you should read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. There you'll find yet another young man (Perrin) with a very special connection to wolves. Like Bran, he adventures in wolf form when he dreams. Like Fitz, he can speak to wolves, and even call for their aid or ask for news. Unlike either of them, he has golden eyes and fights like a wolf, too!

In the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, Tad Williams pairs a wolf with a troll, another memorable duo.

These examples are off the top of my head, and I'm sure with more time and a little help from other readers we could put together a long list of man/wolf characters in fantasy novels.

Dyloot

[Werthead]

Yep, GRRM wrote the chapter where they find the direwolf pups in 1991 when he first started writing the book. Jordan introduced his wolf/human relationship in 1990 and Tad Williams his in 1988. I guess it was just one of those motifs that lots of people just started using at the same time.

[Hobbit]

If you look back far enough you will find that most genres, including fantasy, has it's archetypes. What is mentioned in those two authors is not new to them, and goes back a long way before either of them. See also dragons, quests, fairies, magic swords, heroes and heroines etc etc etc.

It's just the way that writers work using common themes. What matters most is the way each writer brings something special or unique when they write. (And judging by the amount of Tolkien-lite out there, Not every one does.)

Next: How Tolkien copied XXXXX and so on. :rolleyes: :)

Hobbit

[Teresa Edgerton]

It was Tolkien I think who said that one of man's oldest desires is to talk with the animals. Tales of men (and women) communing with wolves, foxes, and other animals probably go back to the time (whenever that was) storytelling was first invented.

But human/wolf pairings do seem to be particularly popular in modern fantasy; there are dozens if not hundreds of examples. Maybe because wolves are so much like dogs (loyal, etc.) but they have that wild, lawless edge.

I suspect that most authors write about these things, not so much because they think the idea will be attractive to readers, but because the idea strikes a powerful chord for them.

[PJS]

Because lots of people have pet dogs and having a loyal pet wolf would be that much cooler. I want one. Plus I think the fact that not all dogs behave perfectly...having a WOLF that behaves perfectly would again..be awesome.

[AuntiePam]

In the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, Tad Williams pairs a wolf with a troll, another memorable duo.


I'm reading The Dragonbone Chair now and am noticing some similarities to other books. In addition to the troll/wolf.

Pryrates -- Grima Wormtongue or Saruman from Lord of the Rings

Witchwood -- Hobb's Liveships

Jaganaur (sp? just met him last night) -- looks and sounds like Gandalf

The Hayholt -- the tunnels Simon fled through reminded me of the dead city in Hobb's Assassin books

The swords -- similar to the One Ring

The Red Hand and Ineluki -- the Nazgul and the Witch King

Simon -- Frodo, only taller :)

Geloe -- Galadriel (yeah, that might be a stretch)

Geloe's house on the lake -- similar to the one in the Abhorsen books

I haven't read as much fantasy as the rest of you folks, or I'd probably notice more.

I'm fine with "borrowing". It adds to my comfort level.

[Werthead]

It should be noted that Williams very conciously wrote Memory, Sorrow and Thorn as a response to what he perceived as subconscious racism in The Lord of the Rings, so similarities to the earlier work are probably intentional.