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Metosblat
January 18th, 2001, 07:35 PM
I know the theory sounds preposterously stupid and very insensitive against a race (jews) who have already suffered so much.
But it really doesn't give them the right to say he is wrong before they hear him out.

I have looked over his findings and I concluded that his theory that the holycaust didn't take place doesn't have enough evidence. However, one thing i did find interesting (and I beleive) is his claim that Hitler didn't authorize The mass killing of the jews in the concentration camps, of which there is alot of evidence to support. I don't think this makes Hitler any better since it was his influencing beliefs that drove his younger generals to move without his consent. They thought he was growing old and losing touch with the war so they took action themselves thinking it would please him when he got his senses back. Sadly it was a very, very bad move.

FitzChivalry
January 18th, 2001, 11:19 PM
Well, as someone who lives in Israel i find it hard to believe that guy of yours, living here i meet a lot of people 50+ years old that have no family, no parents, no siblings, no cousins, everyone died in the holocaust, people from my family died there too, cousins and aunts and uncles of my grandparents and i have no reason to doubt what they say really.

About Hitler, there is no way he didn't know about the death camps... maybe he just didn't sign anything with his own writing to avoid being sentenced as a war criminal in case the war is lost.

Thoughtcriminal84
January 19th, 2001, 02:16 AM
I wonder what that guys "evidence" was...the lack of bodies sitting out in the sun for him to see after fifty years?
My grandfather was a gi in those days, and he told me what it was like to see those people in the camps. Could he have been lying? Sure, people can lie. But I really doubt all the soldiers, jews, and red cross workers were all lying about that.

Doubtlessly there are aspects of WW2 that are concealed from us even now...wasn't it only a few years ago that info on the Enigma code was declassified? But things like this are just too big.

I think it was Mark Twain that wrote: "There are two kinds of people in the world, Liars, and Goddamned Liars...if you ask me, people that claim the Holocaust didn't occur are Goddamned Liars.

if places like Auschwitz don't have enough proof for these people, maybe they should just do a geneology tree for european Jews...if they can explain where over six million of them disappeared to between 1937 and 1945, I'd love to see it.

I tend to get passionate about this one. I used to live in a town where the Klan had a hold, and once you've seen the kind of gutter trash antics they revel in, it's hard to turn a blind eye on other forms of ignorance...

wastra
January 19th, 2001, 04:08 AM
Well, a very close friend of mine was an army medic who treated survivors in Concentration Camps immediately after their liberation. He has photographs of mass graves as well as the facilities that were used in the killings. He did not take the pictures for the government, they were done with a personal camera he bought in London. I've only seen a coupel of the more graphic pictures, the worst he leaves locked away- I have no doubt that the holocaust was real, nor do the survivors of the 6 million jews slaughtered in the death camps.

As for Hitler's role- Mein Kampf (Hitler's book) mentions the taking of eastern European land and removing/exterminating those living there, particularly the Jews. I think Hitler was the MOST reponsible person for the entire project.

wastra
January 19th, 2001, 04:09 AM
Well, a very close friend of mine was an army medic who treated survivors in Concentration Camps immediately after their liberation. He has photographs of mass graves as well as the facilities that were used in the killings. He did not take the pictures for the government, they were done with a personal camera he bought in London. I've only seen a coupel of the more graphic pictures, the worst he leaves locked away- I have no doubt that the holocaust was real, nor do the survivors of the 6 million jews slaughtered in the death camps.

As for Hitler's role- Mein Kampf (Hitler's book) mentions the taking of eastern European land and removing/exterminating those living there, particularly the Jews. I think Hitler was the MOST reponsible person for the entire project.

TTyler
January 19th, 2001, 09:51 AM
How do I follow that last post with the stupidity I'm about to post?

Chelsea Clinton is actually Webster Hubbell's child.

Metosblat
January 19th, 2001, 03:34 PM
I kinda expected this response and most of what you guys are saying is right.
But one thing I wouldn't call the guy with this theory is ignorant, he most definitely is not. 30 yrs of archeological interest in the german concentration camps, 3 separate visits over a 20 year period for 6-12 months.
He is a scholar, not a redneck Nazi.
Sure some of his stuff may seem a bit over the top, but the evidence he has is real.
This doesn't neccessarily mean that the holycaust didn't happen, it could mean that the Germans were so good at covering there own tracks that they hid all the victims remains. I'd give you the guys website, but the australian government shut it down.
That's what i was really complaining about in the first place, free speech to anyone as long as it's only speech. This guy wasn't a Hatemongering racist but everyone treated that way and I don't thinks that's right.

Thoughtcriminal84
January 19th, 2001, 04:27 PM
I can understand that. So what exactly WAS his evidence? I'm curious about that, because there seems to be tons of evidence to support that there was a holocaust.

[This message has been edited by Thoughtcriminal84 (edited January 19, 2001).]

Cadfael
January 19th, 2001, 06:45 PM
I wonder... did he come across evidence, and from that evidence formulate a thoery... or do what a lot of clever people do... come up with a theory, and then look for evidence, and ended looking like a total pi##ock.

Actually Metosblat... I had come across this theory before, and not just from one person. I think Hitler knew what was happening, but on this issue I do have an open mind, it is possible his comments in 'Mein Kampf' could have been taken out of context by some of his subordinates, but unlikely.

As regards a holocaust hoax, no way. To have done this... someone would have had to convince about 12 million people to tell lies, as FitzChivalry pointed out, every person of the Jewish faith, or race (not only in Israel) over the age of 50, have someone they lost during this time. If they are telling outright lies, that is one bloody fine work of conspiracy.

You state the person to make the hoax claim is an intelligent person, I ask the question:

How can he be intelligent to believe this dross in the light of the monumentally overwhelming evidence? I will give time to a sound and reasoned argument, but I will not suffer a fool at all, especially when the fool insults not only my intelligence, but also questions the integrety of people whom have suffered loss. Did the guy get a lot of PR from his theory? Yep... I bet he did.

Having said all that... I admire and respect you for making us all think about this, at least we're talking.

[This message has been edited by dennizm (edited January 20, 2001).]

Metosblat
January 20th, 2001, 02:45 PM
The PR this guy got was not very good, not what he was expecting anyway.
Now everyone thinks he's a Nazi, it's not nice to know that your considered to be a member of the most hated group in History.
The evidence he had was mainly Archaelogical remains, or the lack of. No victim remains where the mass graves were supposed to be, No blood that could be defined as jewish in concentration camps, No residue left on walls of the "gas rooms" where there should have been due to heavy use.
You might say that over 50 years that stuff would decompose, but it is not the case.
For example scientist claim they have discovered the blood of jesus, dated 2000 years old. The gas residue on the walls would have an approximate half life of 750 years.
Offcoarse as I said before this could be due to an incredibly well planned clean-up by the germans in order to hide their tracks.