[FitzChivalry]

Oh yeah, the catholic church is probably responsible to the largest number of deaths in history... persecutions, crusades.. not to mention that they were corrupted and took money from poor peasants that had almost nothing to eat anyway for a ticket to heaven...

[PENTIAK]

I've no doubt about that whatsoever.
Organised religion and hypocracy go hand in hand. And as for the vatican oh, sure, they've done nasty s..t in their time- no doubt, no argument there I just want you to condemn the atrocities of Home & Away.

By the way, and I tried sending this yesterday but nothing came of it-
Anyone with an unhealthy obsession with JFK theories (and there's an entire nation of them- he was their pres once) And if Mr. Ollie Stone's backandtotheleft-ness wasn't enough to satisfy your ravenous desire to be completly bamboozled by multi-facted plots then may I suggest "American Tabloid"- by James Ellroy, he of LA Confidential fame. A damn good read, if a tad confusing at times.
- Still however, I reckon Red Dwarf had the definitive JFK theory.

[Rob B]

Yeah the Catholic Church, the Vatican only a couple of years ago exonerated Galileo and actually acknowledged his astronimical findings as truthful and non-heretic.

[PENTIAK]

I'd love to be ex-communicated, for the status- means people care about my opinions. org religion's no fun, you can't have any fun- why go to church on sunday when you can stay home and watch the Formula 1 racing?

[Ntschotschi]

I really wonder....
a) What has pope pius II to do with a biography of Michelangelo?
b) Why is everyone treading on the pope and the vatican?
Surly noone of you is in danger of beeing excomunicated of this goodnatured old man? Has the catholic done any killings lately let's say ... over the past two hundred years? Which was the latest war the vatican fought? Is there a large amount of bombs, biological weapeons or a bunch of terrorists?
Do you think the suiss guard a menace?
If you take any government of the world with a history of two thousand years - I don't there is one - its history wouldn't be less bloody than the history of the church.
Look at the religious fanatics of our time if you want to talk about religious conspiracies seriously.
Why, this pope and vatican bashing is just tedious .... plus offending religious feelings of some people.

[Metosblat]

Pope Pius has nothing to do with Micheangelo, Pius was an anti-semite and that's why I mentioned him. Micheangelo's Biography contains amazing stories about what was done to him by the two pope's he knew in his life time, and he was a respected member of society, imagine what they did to the peasants. It's too detailed to go into on a forum but i'm sure you'd be able to find a book in your local library or bookstore.
I agree that maybe the middle east religions are more fanatical but they've never really held any power until now, the catholic church has had power for 2000 years and they badly abused it.
You ask who the catholics have killed in the last 200 years, well they funded Hitler so they were an accomplice to millions of deaths. And lets not forget Musilini was also supported by the catholic church.

[Drewids]

No, Meto, Pius did not fund the Germans. He was vilified for not denouncing the Nazi's, the Catholics haven't involved themselves in any war on any side in many, many years. And in defense of the church, the didn't start the crusades. Nobles who were the "word of God" joined and headed to the "promised" land to take it back from the "heathens". But, it was in the name of God. And that is what has killed more people in this world than anything else (nothing comes close actually), people who kill in the name of God, not necessarily the church.

And as for the quote that middle eastern religion never held power until now. Actually, they have been a huge power since very early in civilization. From the fertile crescent, to Suliman the Magnificent, to their overtaking of Egypt, North Africa, southern Spain and parts of Europe and Asia. Also, the Ottoman Empire was a huge power up until WWII.

And as the Church having power, for 2000 years. The first few were a tad "bumpy" as you might recall, and not until Constantine converted did they have power. And since the 19th century, the church has had little or nothing to do with world politics.

Though being one who believes in God, I am used to bashings.

Also, on the evolution end of the discussion. I have latched onto a theory that evolution and creationism are both true. The details involved are viable and evident, though I'm not sure I should go into a long list here. But for the hardcore evolutionists I ask: if the dinosaurs were wiped out by a comet/meteorite/asteroid (which is a very popular theory in evolution circles), were we not created from that mass destruction? We evolved into what we are now, but I think that God put us here to evolve. The bible isn't a very good piece of evidence for this, but it also leaves out major points in historical fact. Such as the dinosaurs, early man (which there is a conspiracy for them too) and hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Adam and Eve were flashed onto earth and they new how make fire, shelter etc..., but I also say that creationism has the validity. We are to perfect of beings to have come from gelatinous goo (real scientific there, huh guys?). But science has yet to show the distinctions between ameboa's and humans, other than both being protein based, which is not evidence.

[This message has been edited by Drewids (edited January 28, 2001).]

[FitzChivalry]

About the church... Yeah, maybe there were goverments who caused more death and destruction... Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Paul Pot, but it doesn't justify the church's doing, and the church done it longest than any government... for hundreds of years.

About Islam in comparison to Christianity, foreighners and people of other religions (jews and pagans)had an easier life under muslim rule than under christian rule for most of history... the christians did a lot more persecutions and pogroms, and not-christians held less rights than under muslim rule. About fanatics... when the crusaders conquered Jerusalem they killed every muslim and jew in the city...
And btw, i'm not sure if the Pope was the one who called for the first crusade, but the popes definitely called for some of the crusades against the heretics...

Now, don't get me wrong, blaming present generations for the dids of their ancestors is not something i like to do, and i don't.
Just making conversation i guess...

[Metosblat]

Religion really is too complex a subject to get into deeply so my next theory is about something totally different, The Aids Virus.
Where do you think it originated from?
my personal opinion is that scientists created it to kill off Homosexuals and third world populations, But then it backfired and they blamed it on monkeys. My reason for thinking this is because there's a Rumor (i don't know how true it is) that Aids first appeared in San Francisco(gay capital of the world) and several african nations.
what do you think?

[FitzChivalry]

I think it's a pretty idiotic theory.
Ever studied biology? you can't make a virus that will affect gays and people who live in the 3rd world only... humans are built the same... it will hurt the other people too.
Not to mention that i see no reason why would someone waste resources and money on killing gays and 3rd world populations...