[Myshkin]

KatG:

1) I think you are confusing the publishing process with the marketing process.

2) I never demanded, nor even asked, DAW for this information. DAW gave this information all on its own, using it to help market the book. How can you blame the fans for that? We're at fault for having been mislead by the answer to a question we never asked? That's ridiculous.

Pat:

If Rothfuss' editor has still not seen a single word of the manuscript for book two why on earth was she confident in its readiness for market a year and a half ago. Perhaps the good folks at DAW should have waited to see what kind of shape book two was in before promising its readers that it would be ready.

[Ranke Lidyek]

While I'm on the record for criticizing Wolheim's hyperbole of Rothfuss' novel (the "best fantasy in 30 years?"--when there are obvious, glaring flaws in the novel: narrative focus, redundancy, Kvothe as a "Mary Sue", lack of necessary stakes to consider the novel as a classic, etc.), I'd like to defend DAW.

DAW has stood by their authors with perhaps the best track record of any major fantasy publisher out there in terms of loyalty. Lesser publishers tend to dump their authors before they can build fanbases, so be careful in your criticism in that you'll find that many of the series you DO enjoy could never be completed with other houses. Perhaps Wolheim HAD seen the early drafts of the whole saga--if so, I can understand her feeling they could get the book done in yearly increments (though, that's still a VERY compressed schedule in the publishing world). Rothfuss HAS gone through a lot in the past year or so, and though he's an admitted procrastinator, I feel that perhaps a part of this is that his head wasn't into it (I've been there). Again, why not wait until you have a great novel instead of compromising the series? Even if the story is complete, things take time to proofread and quality control. I've worked with many authors, some published in helping pull their manuscripts into a semblance of what they want them to be. Even my own book took over a year (and counting) of polishing before I felt comfortable querying it. Part of this is that it takes DISTANCE to objectively look at one's own work (or even the work of others in the editing process). If you are too close, or the previous version is too "fresh" in your mind, you tend to lose sight of the novel. Writing is very complex; a balancing act, a magic trick. The great novels have a certain apparent simplicity--a grace where things appear effortless (and the strings don't show), but there are ALWAYS strings--and smoke--and mirrors. It takes time to ensure the execution is worthy of the concept and visa versa.

Again, I feel that editors are the most underappreciated (and overworked) cogs in the publishing wheel. I think giving them the benefit of the doubt is in order, otherwise we'd end up with an inferior novel (most likely). I'd rather have them wait and get it right. Kat's George R.R. Martin comparison is correct. I wish he'd waited on the last novel until it was worthy of prior volumes. I think this, in the end, will benefit the series as a whole. I'd like to see Rothfuss improve upon the faults of his first novel (which I did enjoy) and bring his name up there with the greats. If it takes a little longer, then I'm fine with it.

Well, I'm not feeling that well tonight, so I hope some of this makes sense. But I do want to let people know that of all publishers, DAW might be the one that's earned a bit of leeway. They've done a lot for their authors.

[KatG]

In the newsbulletin next week, eager Fantasy readers responsible for lauching new war on terror in Iran and Syria? And further on in today's show, Fantasy books publisher solves famine in Africa?

Hmm, is this as good as John’s death of the polar bears rant in the exaggeration snarkiness sweepstakes? John’s was longer and more nuanced, but I think Mith’s deserves points for connecting into the U.S. political election. :)

1) You feel that Rothfuss has a moral obligation to you to deliver his books to you faster because he said he had them. We disagree about this. I feel that when you buy a book, even in hardcover, what you get for your money is the physical book and nothing else. You get no guarantee that you will like the book, and the author gets no guarantee that you will buy any further books from him. If an author has a moral obligation to me, as I see it, it is to write as good a book as he can manage in order to keep me coming back. I basically agree with Matthew Stover with his philosophy that he will not put out there anything that he feels is less than absolutely fantastic, and it does seem most of the new crop of writers has this creed.

2) A release date isn’t a promise, but a scheduling estimate, a projection. But what you seem to be saying is that you feel DAW and Rothfuss deliberately lied to you about the readiness of the series, that they knew the books wouldn’t be ready to go, that they set you up so that you’d buy the first book and then gambled you’d get so into it that you’d stick around and buy the rest. I think this is not very likely. Attrition rates in the audience for a series are high, even for a serial, and they get higher the longer the delay between books. And pissed off readers frequently walk away. Since publishers and authors make most of their money on their backlists, deliberately lying to readers on this issue is a really bad marketing strategy. I think they thought it was ready to go, that they’d be able to do what they said they’d do, but plans changed.

Rothfuss worked with editors for the first time on Name, and hopefully, he learned things from it. If he did and if in tinkering with the work, he realized he needed to revamp stuff, that’s something I’d praise him for, not condemn him. Further, if he needed more time, that means rescheduling DAW’s entire line of books, not just Rothfuss’. Some other lead title has to get bumped, booksellers have to be placated, etc. So some of the delay is probably marketing, scheduling and production factors, as you know, and I understand you might not have patience for that, but it’s not lying either.

3) I didn’t talk about a generation. The Internet is intergenerational with people of all ages. But it has changed how some readers and authors and publishers interact. It has interjected readers into the writing and publishing process, where they get to see all the cursing, frustration and insecurity that goes on during that, and it seems to freak a lot of them out. You feel that Rothfuss isn’t taking things seriously, is coasting, partying, and that’s partly why things are delayed. I again think this is not very likely. I do think he probably is getting too caught up in his obligations to his publisher to promote, in answering fans’ questions and trying to be accessible to them. It’s something they have to learn and get better at – how to say no, how to juggle, how to not tell Internet fans every little thought that goes through your head on your blog and to tune them out. But most of the delay is undoubtedly him trying to figure out how to fix things in the ms.

He could have not bothered. He could have said, screw this, they’ll buy it anyway, just patch it up and ship it out. That’s something authors have done before. And it would mean more sales for him, sooner, certainly less grumbling from fans. At least, until they read it. He’s risking you walking away because you don’t have your fix. Again, not the brightest marketing ploy in the world.

4) It’s all very well to claim that you all specifically didn’t ask DAW questions about the books, but that doesn’t mean that DAW isn’t pressured to provide this sort of information now. Fans do ask questions about scheduling, progress reports, and other things through the Net and all the publishers have to put that sort of information in their announcements because fans ask, because other publishers do it, because it has become standard practice, like telling us the exact budget breakdown of movies has become standard practice. I’m NOT saying that they therefore lie. I’m saying that they aren’t lying to you. They are telling you what they believe and plan to have happen. And then they turn out to be wrong.

I don’t always take the publishers’ side. The other day, I was at another website accused of being too critical of publishers about publicity support (because I pointed out, as I have on this site, that authors have to do most of the promotion work.) It’s just that bashing them for having to rescind a pub date and saying that’s lying, that doesn’t work for me – I don’t know, if that’s what’s important to you, that’s what’s important to you. But I think it’s creating a really hostile relationship between readers and authors, especially the new ones, and making them less likely to be creative and do their best work.

Sorry for the long post again. I’m not as pithy. I’m sorry that this sort of thing is causing people to walk away from writers they liked. But I don’t agree with either the interpretation of events or the particular philosophy.

[Ranke Lidyek]

Kat:

I'm going to give this another try and see if I can get across why people get irritated when something like this is announced. Agree or disagree, this is how I feel.

When Rothfuss published The Name of the Wind he denotes it as being book 1. He asks:

"please buy this book, it is not a standalone story but the first of 3 volumes. I'm aware it's a downside that the book ends a third of the way into the story, especially since I am still charging you full price for the book. However in order to offset that downside and the fact that you will pay 3 times as much for the full story as you would get with say any regular mainstream literature book, I can promise you that the books will come out quickly, on yearly intervals. That's not too bad is it? Please invest in me and you will be rewarded with a great, long story told over 3 volumes, to be published in quick succession so as to make the wait for the remainder of the story I'm telling you doable".




Now, I think Mith does have a point on this one. This does spark of "the fingers typing out checks the writer can't cash". But I'm not sure we know the full story and I'm not sure it's constructive to pass around blame to one party or the other--as long as the wait results in a better novel; and I think the second book NEEDS to improve on the first, which had many flaws, I feel. That said, I enjoyed the novel and look forward to the second.

However, I can see why some would be upset. What Kat says about the author having no obligation is normally true, but less so when a statement like this is made....

[jamieem]

Whilst I'm firmly in the camp of being massively disappointed, rather than feeling cheated like some, I do feel that it's a real shame that neither DAW or Rothfuss himself have taken the time to put anything up on their respective sites or issue any kind of press release.

With all due respect to Pat's hotlist, this news is of interest to more people than that blog post may reach and it's now a week old without any kind of official comment...

[Wulfa_Jones]

Does anyone else think this has been blown way out of proportion?

Yes the book has been delayed. Twice. Who’s fault is it? The publisher for giving a date or the author for not finishing the work? Does it matter?
It’s not like there aren’t dozens of other books we’re all looking forward to reading next year.

The book will be ready when it is ready. The best thing DAW can do is stop giving release dates until the book is clearly ready for publication.

Whilst I am looking forward to reading the next in the series, I’m not going to get worked up about the fact it is late.

[Afrobro]

I think everyone Is getting sidetreacked from the main point....The delay of he book is likely the sole responsiblity of kvothe.

A douchebag like that he's probably admiring his pubes in the mirror, or learning to master more random and compeletly first skills. When he's not doing this he plays his lute while jesus cries...

[Mithfânion]

Wulfa

Does anyone else think this has been blown way out of proportion?

It seems that way because of the discussion we are having. We are not sitting around a table talking to each other where one can read the other's facial expression and see how something is really meant. Oftentimes replies are lengthy and more vehement because of the disagreement on the issue one has with other posters rather than any anger with the original idea.

For instance, I was disappointed when I read about the second delay for this book but an hour after I read it it was certainly out of my mind and no more an issue. But of course in the meantime I had chosen to post strongly about the matter here, which leads to someone else disagreeing strongly with me, and thus a discussion ensues that keeps the topic alive for several days. Whereas the reason for the discussion has long since ceased to arouse any anger.

It reminds me of the discussions on tolkienonline we used to have about the LoTR movies and all the changes that Jackson chose to make to Tolkien's story. Initially you'd be upset at yet another foolish change but that wears off soon, yet you find yourself arguing about it for days and many posts because others take real umbrage because I took exception to Jackson's calls. It seems then that I was really mad with Jackson but of course that is not the case, the vehemence has long since redirected itself to the poster defending Jackson, who keeps that flame alive. Same thing with the discussions about Martin's ADWD.

[Radone]

I think everyone Is getting sidetreacked from the main point....The delay of he book is likely the sole responsiblity of kvothe.

A douchebag like that he's probably admiring his pubes in the mirror, or learning to master more random and compeletly first skills. When he's not doing this he plays his lute while jesus cries...

LOL! Nice. Never considered him in that ... aromatic and semi-hygenic manner.

[KatG]

I didn't take umbrage, Mith. You expressed your upset over it, and you explained your reasons why. I was pointing out I had a different view of it, and why I thought it was important to bother doing so. Part of that reason was that these things tend to produce images of both publishers and authors that are wildly off, in my opinion. While your anger may have faded, and you might have gone off for a nice lunch and a lie-down, as Rothfuss suggested for Abercrombie, the anger that gets expressed does have an impact, so I think a counter view is not out of line. But I apologize for the lengthy aspect of it and for keeping you arguing over it longer than you wanted. I didn't really want to keep doing it either. :)

And no, Ranke, Patrick didn't say those things. At least, I don't think so. Mithfanion was paraphrasing what he felt had been promised.