[Kierk Soren]

Hey, I live in NY as I have said, and recently a popular trendy "going on around town" type of magazine jumped on the lets attack Tolkien because they are making these really big movies of his work and are (hopefully) going to get it right and they will be bigger than Star
Wars and everyone is reading him again bandwagon(whew). I thought alot of you on this forum would have taken offense at this article reviewing the new JRR Tolkien biography out now "Author of the Century" But mainly it was the reviewers comments re: the genre of fantasy itself, heres a sampling- " An association with the pulpy execesses of the contemporary fantasy novel, which arguably owes its existance to Tolkien, doesn't help much either" (this quote is in re: to his work being considered greater literature ) or "Tolkiens prose is often no better than that of modern sword-and-sorcery schlock." Anyway, this guy represents the "elite" critical establishment (he refers to this in almost Machiavellian terms) As I have said, I read all kinds of literature and have a pretty open mind. What do you guys think of this kind of criticism? I will continue to look at anything I consider reading with a critical eye, and in my current desire to read the best of this genre of literature I will avoid the xeroxed unoriginal crap that unfortunatly populates any genre. I just thought this guy seemed like a real schmuck!

[This message has been edited by Kierk Soren (edited May 21, 2001).]

[Rob B]

A paraphrase of something I said in another forum I visit:
Not to go off on a rant, (this might a **bit** lengthy, and repetitive of things we've all said before), but so what:

Some purveyors of and literature at large often make it seem that Fantasy is a misbegotten stepchild of literature, when actually literature is a way of expressing fantasy, fantasy has been around a lot longer than literature or the Printed word (hmmm Beofulf, Illiad, The Tales of Hercules, Gilgamesh anyone? all originally traditionally oral stories) of which every piece of "Literature" is a sub-genre. Fantasists have it much harder than 'mainstream' fiction writers; mainstreamers don't have to worry about too much background for the world and surroundings, its for the most part the world we live in!!! MOST fantasy writers have to construct a WHOLE WORLD!!!

Also, Fantasy writers have certain conventions they work within and the originality that the author displays within those conventions is the mark of greatness and true writing ability (David Farland, Tad Williams, GRRM, Stephen King, John Marco and of course, Stephen R. Donaldson to name a few)

I say people who harshly critcize fantasy, haven't read some of the GREAT stuff like GRRM or Donaldson and don't know their @$$ from their elbow. They are saying what they feel is the "right" thing for a "Literature" critic to say. Then again that's their opinion, and like other things EVERYBODY has an opinion.

Crap like this frustrates me, but I read what I enjoy regardless of what the so-called "Critics" say, fantasy is a big seller and they are simply trying to deride it, pick it apart BECAUSE of the popularity.

Incidentally, I also hope LoTR makes a killing, blows away Star Wars and Harry Potter.

Kierk, what magazine? I live in Jersey, so I would probably come across the magazine.

[Zsinj16]

Well I think it's ridiculous how some of these critics say LOTR is the only good fantasy books out there. As Judge Judy would say: "WRONG!"
There's tons of other good fantasy books out there just waiting to be read. As for me I don't give a wampa's behind when someone criticizes thefantasy books I like, they can say it's too cliche, pulpy, whatever, and nothing that they say will change MY opinion about the fantasy books. Let them ostracize us fantasy lovers all they want, why should we care? After all, it's a free country for Pete's sake! We all have our own likes and dislikes and are equally entitled to them. So I say let them naysay against fantasy 'till their faces turn blue, it still won't do any good. For example, I get annoyed at my little sister listening to cheesy music I don't like such as Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys, but the only good it did when I told her was that I seriously offended her and I felt terribly bad for doing that. She doesn't ever ostracize me or say a word against me for the stuff I like, so why should I relentlessly attack her for liking what she likes. I mean, that's like condemning someone for being themselves! The critics and naysayers should see this in the same perspective. You can't change a person's mind about what they like and dislike anymore than you can stop the existence of the universe. You've got to respect people's likes and dislikes. Okay, that's the end of my balrogish rant! http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Zsinj16 (edited May 21, 2001).]

[Kierk Soren]

You tell em' Z! FItzF, it's in the May 17-24th edition of TimeOut New York, you may be able to find it in Jersey. I'll have more to say on this later, headed out to the NY Public Library(you know the grand bldg. with the huge lions gaurding the entrance!) then to work. Keep it lively.

[FitzChivalry]

I find people who criticize the fantasy genre to seriously lack imagination, i pitty those who can't forget our real world for a few hours and dive into a totally different thing.

[Shehzad]

I happen to think particularly poorly of people who have no understanding WHATSOEVER of what they're criticizing. Not only has this two-bit hack (for what else can he be, considering the language he used) attempted to broing down Tolkien, he has attacked all of fantasy with it. To say that Tolkien wasn't great because a lot of drivel is going around in the name of fantasy is like saying that The Godfather isn't a great movie since all those other mobster movies sucked. He also evinced an absolute ignorance of current fantasy trends, since he obviously knew nothing of the great books that we have mentioned... GRRM, Zelazny, Donaldson, GG Kay, Tad Williams. Unfortunately this is a none-too-uncommon attitude. I have been actually LAUGHED at for reading "childish" fantasy novels. A few choice quotes from Stephen Donaldson usually shuts people up. Some things need special people to be appreciated...

[Pathir]

'If you want to avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, write nothing, be nothing...'
Elbert Hubbard.


Let it be guys, you know what they say;'time is the only critic without ambition.'

[Arithon]

Here in Greece only recently the genre of fantasy has been discovered, but already it has many fans. I also believe that many people and critics underestimate fantasy, because it's simply what they're supposed to do. In our society, everything surpassing everyday, boring life is childish etc. When will they realize their mistake? Maybe never, but I don't care in the slightest. I must add that I read all kinds of books, and I think that some fantasy novels are trully equivalent to great works of "ordinary" literature.

[Kierk Soren]

This is what I'm talkin' about...great comments, I really enjoyed reading em'. I say they don't know what their missin'!! By the way-I just shed my junior status. Hope all the regulars here feel like I earned it...I was actually looking forward to this, pretty sad HUH?

[This message has been edited by Kierk Soren (edited May 21, 2001).]

[Cadfael]

Professional critics are ten a penny, they just want to push their often baised oppinion on people and then say "I helped to make a flopp/hit". They are a little bit stupid, b/c they have not realised yet that nobody gives a damn about their opinion. They are also to be pitied, they can no longer read or watch a movie without feeling the need to pick holes, they can no longer just read for the sheer pleasure. Okay... to a certain extent we are all critic, but it is how we put our opinions across, and the reasons for giving our opinions that differ from these 'experts'.

I have said this before, but not on this forum, but the only recommendations or critiques of a book that I take any intrest in, are from the people who actually read them for enjoyment, namely the members of forums such as this.