[Wilde Silas]

Used the search function but came up dry.

So we get to bend a few more rules in this genre, but what about POV? I'm starting a second draft of a YA espionage-style novel and I'm settled on close third-person multiple POV. Is there a rule about how many characters heads you can get inside of? Obviously too many becomes confusing, and I would think that 3-4 would be ideal. IIRC George R.R. Martin does 4-6 fairly successfully, but could this be stretched to 7 or 8? What about using it with a character who only appears in 2-3 scenes?

It's pretty tough to cull this down when you're trying to write 'epic' plots that stretch over entire kingdoms of geography. My first draft has at least 7 POV's right now, but 3 of them are only used 2-3 times. I've searched several books that touch on POV and surprisingly, none of them specifically mention this issue. Any examples of other authors who have done this well, or POV resources that speak to this? Any help would be appreciated.

[KatG]

We talk about POV all the time here, so I don't know why the Search function came up empty. We also talk about how there are no rules to writing fiction and to writing SFF, so let's just rephrase the question.

You are writing an espionage YA novel that sounds as if it is also imaginary realm fantasy? You are using as a viewpoint format, close multiple third person, also known as limited or tight third person. Your story structure has a considerable amount of sprawl to it, geographically and probably thematically. After working out your first draft, you find yourself with 7-8 character povs, a not unusual number and a fair amount to work with. (George Martin's Song series has far more than 4-6 character povs in it -- more like a dozen or more.)

So the answer to your question is: we don't know if 7-8 is working for your particular story or not, though writers here can tell you their own personal preferences and experiences with this issue. That a character pov does not appear frequently does not necessarily mean that it's not valuable to the story and should be axed. A lot depends on the plot structure and what you are trying to do with the development of the main characters. It's not unusual for minor characters to be given a share of the narrative, to provide particular information, and also for texture and stylistic considerations.

In YA fiction, the focus is usually on the teen protagonist, and so the scope of the novel and the povs are more commonly narrow, but this is not always the case. My advice to you would be to look very closely at this point at what you are trying to do with this story. Consider if any of the character povs are there because you were just trying to work out aspects of the story in the first draft stage, or if they play a vital role that needs to be kept. Consider if the story feels unbalanced to you or certain characters under-developed because the amount of narrative time for each pov is uneven (though it is very unusual for all the character povs in a story to get equal narrative time.)

Remember that character povs are in service to the story, not the other way around. So it's not the number of them that you have that's critical or the amount of narrative time each gets, but what purpose they serve for you. If a pov is not working, that's a problem. If the pov is just number seven on the hit parade, that's largely irrelevant. If, however, the number seven pov is making the story extremely long by its inclusion, and you don't think the length of the story is working for you, then you will have to consider how critical that voice is to the tale you want to tell.

So it's going to be up to you, and you may have to fish around a bit to figure out how you want things to look -- not only for pov, but for all the things that work with and depend on pov: characterization, plot, structure, theme/focus, setting, etc. But by doing that, you're liable to have a much stronger, more interesting story that people respond to than if you try to cut and patch the thing according to some Dr. Frankenstein's monster-building formula.

[Hereford Eye]

Just finished L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Legacies which is 597 pages of a single POV. Worked fine for me. OTOH, Sue's HOG has multiple POV in far fewer pages and that worked fine for me as well.

[Dawnstorm]

So we get to bend a few more rules in this genre, but what about POV? I'm starting a second draft of a YA espionage-style novel and I'm settled on close third-person multiple POV. Is there a rule about how many characters heads you can get inside of? Obviously too many becomes confusing, and I would think that 3-4 would be ideal. IIRC George R.R. Martin does 4-6 fairly successfully, but could this be stretched to 7 or 8? What about using it with a character who only appears in 2-3 scenes?

I never thought of counting the PoV-characters in my own WiP. Every character who is at least somewhat important to the story gets at least one PoV-scene. Sometimes, supporting characters get a PoV. And sometimes there are characters whose only function is examplary PoV (i.e. to illustrate the social setting). I may well have crossed twenty PoV-characters. So far.

You know your story. What's the point of multiple point of views, in your case?

In my own novel, I'm going for multiple PoV, since the core topic is how events get interpreted through social context. People, individually, don't get what's going on, so they band together, quarrel a bit, and then they get it wrong in a different way. ;)

My novel doesn't have a villain, but the characters keep assigning the role, to each other in some cases, to themselves in others, to abstract concepts in yet others. I could call it a "scapegoat hunt", heh. I think this works best if you do not have a PoV-focus. Actually, I'm thinking of reducing some of the more prominent PoVs (and the way to do this may well be to increase the number of PoV-characters, by importing minor characters such as nurses or servants).

So, what's the PoV-concept? Why do you have multiple 3rd limited? Forget about arbitrary limitations. Sometimes two PoVs are too many, and sometimes you may want to have a new PoV with every scene. It depends on the story.

I have no experience with YA, or spy novels, though.

[Wilde Silas]

Wow - thanks. These three posts are more helpful than the wealth of published materials I've read on the subject.

My novel is a 'mystery' by nature, but not in the traditional sense. The plot is working great as is and there are several tasty surprises for the reader along the way. I accomplished this through changing POV to withhold information from certain characters and the reader until the moment the info would pack the most punch.

For instance, the villain has a dual identity (ala Palpatine in the StarWars saga), and I've used a tight 3rd for both POV's. I've been able to keep this dual identity from the reader until the climax of the story (at which point the reader should whack their head and say, "Ah! I should have known!). There are things about the protagonist that are discovered (by support characters, protagonist, reader) near the end as well.

None of this is possible without the current POV changes, and limiting them would prevent the reader from intimacy with the characters - in other words, the reader would feel tricked in the end (I want them to feel surprised, not ripped off). So as you can see, this all requires a substantial amount of dancing around the POV, but yes, most serve the plot. My instinct is to cull a few of them down that are non-essential, and not worry about the rest.

[Holbrook]

I suppose as many as you need to tell the story.

I have used 10, I think in Oracle, but current effort (Hand of Glory) has only four. It's just the way it worked out. I was tempted to use more, but then that would have increased the word count and to be honest would not have added to the plot at all. I would have just waffled on from another character's POV over the same piece of action.

Some writers use lots, what I call throw away characters, that are there just for that scene, then are gone, never to return, the hero/story has moved on.

[Dawnstorm]

So as you can see, this all requires a substantial amount of dancing around the POV, but yes, most serve the plot. My instinct is to cull a few of them down that are non-essential, and not worry about the rest.

Sounds like you know what you're doing.

For instance, the villain has a dual identity (ala Palpatine in the StarWars saga), and I've used a tight 3rd for both POV's.

Now this is intriguing. :D

[Wilde Silas]

It's actually not too difficult. If identity #1 refers to identity #2 (himself) in 3rd person (and with great contempt), it's pretty easy to read them as separate people. The villian (identity #1) is eager to shed the facade of identity #2, and can therefore think about killing him, laying him to rest, etc. without giving away that he's talking about his false i.d. The rest is just POV manipulation and separating the characters physically in different scenes. The only way the reader would pick up on it is that the two characters are never in the same scene together, but the as the story goes, it wouldn't make sense for them to be seen together, so it works out pretty well (so far!).

[James Carmack]

It sounds like you're wanting to use the third person limited, only jump around to different characters. This, in my opinion, is ideal for the kind of story you're wanting to tell. I'm a big proponent of using the 3PL on general principle (although there are times when other POVs are not only appropriate but desirable), but I don't think I've ever restricted myself to just one chara's POV for the entire story.

The key to distinguishing a 3PL with multiple charas and the third person omniscient is where you have the camera. I refer to the chara whose head we're in (on whose shoulder the camera rests) as the "active lead". For the most part, we see what he sees, knows what he thinks, perceives whatever he can perceive (but not always what he actually does perceive). Occasionally the narrator might step in for a bit of explanation, but we don't have immediate access to what the other charas are thinking (unless your active lead is a psychic or something), though we can have the active lead guess what they're thinking. So, anyway, the camera is effectively on the active lead's shoulder (though we can move it around a bit, of course). In the 3PO, the camera goes wherever it wants, scooping out the contents of different charas' heads at will. Although there are times when this is useful, it's a bad idea when you're trying to keep secrets.

The transition from one active lead to another generally should come after a clear divider (i.e. a section break or the end of a chapter). Without a divider to indicate the shift, it just looks like you're hopping around at will and, therefore, using the 3PO.

As Kat so sagely noted, there are no rules to writing, only what works and what doesn't (and your mileage is bound to vary there). Anyway, this is the strategy I personally employ as a writer and what I encourage as an editor.

The best way to find out if it works is to put it in action. We can talk theory until the cows come home, but the only way to know if something works or not is to test it out.

[Kreschyboy]

Another thing to consider is "what makes it the most interesting?" by doing a pov on a character, are you a) creating suspense? or b) trying to give too much exposition to the reader so you feel they'll "understand" the story better. or c) a nicer version of b, giving just enough exposition so that they'll understand it.

If b, then you have a problem. remember that everything you come up with originally doesn't have to be directly stated to your reader. also, things can remain hidden for a long time.

If Tom kills Joe and then runs away to join the army, you don't necessarily have to do a pov on Tom and tell us that Tom's girlfriend cheated on him with Joe, you could use the element of mystery and then divulge the information at a crucial point. ie. "Luke, i am your father." no need to do a POV on Darth Vader where he thinks hmm... this is my son... oh well, off with his head. just to tell the reader that they are related.

-Kreschyboy