[sanclemente99]

By my recollection Tolkien was "discovered" around the late 60s or early 70s. Since then, a number of authors of rather marginal talent have capitalized on the popularity of Tolkien to market their own books. We've been through 3 phases of these writers, and I'm wondering when the current phase will end.

The first phase were the nearly Xerox copies of LOTR. The most blantant example is Terry Brook's Sword Of Shannara, which could only have been written by an attorney well-versed in copyright law. No creativity at all, just a word processor with a 'Replace All' button.

The next phase was the "I'm different, see" copies of LOTR, the standard-bearer for this sub-genre being Donaldson's series. (If you haven't read it, don't. Do you really want to spend hundreds and hundreds of pages inside the head of a feel-sorry-for-me-because-I-had-a-little-adversity-in-my-life child-molesting rapist?) Authors of these books go out of their way to show that their works are *not* copies of LOTR, through the ingenious method of writing exact copies of LOTR with everything inverted. Again, no creativity: simply replace black with white, good with bad, hero with villian, short with tall, and you're done.

Our current phase is the "Fat Fantasy" phase. The books, such as Goodkind, Eddings, Jordan, Martin, etc. are clones of LOTR, but with less emphasis on "what" and "where" and more emphasis on "who". Tons of characters, lots of social interplay, minimal action. They aren't so much fantasy books as romance novels: the fantasy settings are throw-aways and the same story could be told in any setting, including downtown New York City. But the main distinquisher of this phase is the thickness of the book. If a talented author could say it well in 150 pages, it comes out as a 600 page book. If it would take 200 pages to say it well, we get an 800 page book. Creativity is limited to such questions as "how many adjectives can I fit into a sentence?" and "can I get one more page out of his going to the bathroom, or are 3 all I can stretch it to?"

We've been in the Fat Fantasy phase for about 15 years. When it will end and what will the next phase be? Personally, I'm hoping the next phase will be the Creative phase, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thoughts? Lots of flame-bait there....

[Erebus]

So...what exactly are you saying, San...?

You don't really like the advent of modern fantasy, or do you just like to criticise their authors for their apparent cycle of thinly disguised plagiarism?

Some have said there hasn't been an orginal work of fiction since the Bible, perhaps our most famous precursor to modern fantasy. http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

PS: Oh, and welcome to the Forum, BTW! Nice to have you onboard.


[This message has been edited by erebus (edited July 10, 2001).]

[Bardos]

Welcome!

The "Fat Fantasy" face will... someday... end all-right, but no prohpet am I. http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

Btw, I think the "Creative Fase" will have 600+ page novels, with a lot of plot, and not fat, useless paragraphs.
And I think some author out there are in this face: Martin and Feist, come to mind... They fill their books with plot, not with words. http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Rob B]

san, welcome!

What fantasy books DO you like?!?

The Fat Fantasy Syndrome will end when the books stop selling. Period. Publishing is a business concerned with books that sell, right now BFF (Big Fat Fantasy) sells. The trilogy (ok now moreso maybe the series) is pretty much an widely accepted format for fantasy. The blame for this can be strictly placed on Tolkein's original US publisher, Ballantine. The marketing people didn't think a large book (LoTR as JRRT intended it) would sell, so they broke it up into three book, wa la the trilogy is born.

I will say your point about Donaldson is not exactly on the mark (IMHO), check the Donaldson Dissenting view thread.

That said, just because many of the bigger books are selling doesn't mean there are some out there that aren't good and on the way to changing what is accepted as good fantasy (both format and content).

Give Mary Gentle's ASH, John Marco's Tyrants and Kings trilogy a try or Matt Stovers Heroes Dieand Blade of Tyshalle a try. Big books, but they are above and beyond the BFF's being published today. Well ASH is HUGE book or 4 books, depending on where you live, but there is not ONE word wasted in that book.

[wastra]

I'm not sure how Jordan and Martin works are clones of LotR.

Jordan- definitely has tolkien's "little guy becomes hero" and joins a small band of wanderers motif, but there is no single epic quest into the darkness, rather a long campaign against the darkness. Okay, there are some similarities there. But nothing quite so plagiaristic. Epic quests have been common since Beowulf.

Martin- SoIF doesn't use the "average Joe becomes hero", since his main characters are and have always been the ruling elite. This series is based on politics, not epic quest.


I guess i don't know when the next phase of fantasy will emerge. I certainly have no problem wit the length of books that come out today (except, at time, the rambling works of Jordan, which could be crunched into 2/3 the copy or less). If an author writes 500 pages of riveting story, I'm fine. If they ramble and balther about for 300 before getting to the story, I can understand the disappointment.

Personally, I think the next phase of fantasy might be Victorian-era rather than Medieval- Playing off the old Legends and stories from that time.

Bascially, the European Medieval setting is done throughand through. How about other cultures to use as a basis? China? Feudal Japan? Middle East? How about other Times? Colonial/Victorian Age? Pre-Medieval Times?

[sanclemente99]

Thanks for all the responses! I checked back, but really didn't expect any so quickly.

As to what fantasies I do like, I like most of the books I mentioned in my original post, for starters. In rereading my original post I can see how it can be interpreted as a "diatribe posing as a question". But that really wasn't the point of my post. The diatribe part was my trying to give a capsule summary of the amount of real creativity in books in the phase in one sentence.

Cloning a great series can certainly give pleasing results, take the Sword Of Shannara, which is a fun read. And there is no question (in my mind at least) that Eddings and Feist and Martin and Jordan and others have written good and entertaining books. And publishers are going to stick with what works, and Fat Fantasies work.

But from the standpoint of a really creative book it's been quiet...too quiet. The climate seems ripe for something new and different, not a single work but a whole new phase of fantasy works.

[sueVee]

Curious- what do you think of Elizabeth Haydon's Rhapsody series? Where would it fit in?

[Rob B]

san, again, give *one* of the authors I've mentioned a try. China Mieville's Perdido Street Station is something unto itself while firmly entrenched in the genre.

sueVee, I've read both of Hayden's novels and will be picking up Destiny when it is published. I enjoyed both.

Where would it fit in? clarify.

[sanclemente99]

I take it from your response, FitzFlagg, that you would consider those works the start of the next phase? OK, I'll consider that. Until I've read them all I can't tell if they are just islands of creativity, or a new fantasy trend.

I thought Ash was a good book(s) [4 volumes here], and quite tightly written. While I couldn't get into Perdido, from what I read it certainly was a departure from the Fat Fantasy phase.

[Rob B]

I can see how Perdido would be difficult, but there is a wealth of creativity and imagination in that novel.

I would say the authors I mentioned are a departure from Brooks, Jordan and the rest of the "bestsellers" in that the approach to the characters and stories aren't the typical Good v. Evil. Don't get me wrong, I like some of the Good v Evil stuff like Jordan, Donaldson and others, it has its place. I also like to see something different and new.

As for next phase, that may be a term that has been bandied around a bit, but it works as good as any. These writers, at least for me and those I've been in contact with that have read them, are writing speculative fiction with it's roots firmly intact--imaginative, sense-of-wonder, "makes you say wow once you've finished" you get my meaning. While sticking to those roots, the writing is a new, original and fresh.

I feel I may be preaching to the choir when I recommend this, but you may want to check out Gabe Chouinard's Dislocated Fictions Column (http://www.sfsite.com/gabe01.htm) at www.SFSite.com (http://www.SFSite.com) for some great recommendations, heck I discoverd Matt Stover's writing through Gabe's interview w/Stover.

There are also two interviews here at sffworld with John Marco,the most recent (http://www.sffworld.com/authors/m/marco_john/interviews/200104.html) conducted by me. Some series spoilers are in the interview.