[Zaku]

It is absolutely frustrating to read ill comments towards authors. I was just reading the post on "opinions on Goodkind" some of the comments were unbearable. It is entirely different issue to state likes/dislikes, however it is unacceptable to belittle an author because their use of "killer chickens" in their work. This is a fantasy forum, and fantasy as I believe in is boundless. Which is also the reasoning behind my passion for it and I believe that to be so for the most of us here. Unfortunately, many here do not feel the same way. And its those people who make comments such as "it is unrealistic....". Realism? There is no such a thing in fantasy world. It is a merely dreamer's getaway. I respect those who do not appreciate such concept, but despise the ignoramuses who tamper with our sacred home.

[Metosblat]

You may have overlooked your own ignorance my friend. I haven't read any of goodkind's books but alot of people here have and their knowledge of fantasy is very wide.
Maybe you should finish the series before you critisize people's critisizm.

Ummmmm.....welcome to the forum.

PS: haha, ironic isn't it, I'm critisizing someone for critisizing someone else's critisizm.

[Erebus]

Realism in fantasy? I guess that's something to dwell upon! Who's to say what's real or not, hey? But, it's important to remember that a Forum by its very nature will be home to many different points of view from a wide variety of people. As such, we have to respect that many of us will have conflicting opinions. But, at the end of the day, we also have to remember that our visits here are supposed to be fun, interesting and hopefully, a little informative as well.

None of us here like to see individual or personal attacks. Afterall, it's a big sand box and there's plenty of toys to share! http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Shadowen]

'It is unacceptable to belittle an author because of their use of 'killer chickens'...

Unacceptable to whom? I reserve the right to belittle any author who writes poorly. This is indeed a fantasy forum and fantasy itself is, as you say, boundless; however, have you no concept of good or bad authors? Well written or poorly written books? Just because something comes under the heading 'fantasy' does not make it sacred and above criticism.

I am one of the 'ignoramuses' who dared to criticise Goodkind. I do not consider my self an ignoramus, but rather a well read and intelligent person.

Can I draw your attention to the fact that everyone is entitled to their opinion? If you were looking for a forum where the participants are like sheep, slavishly praising every fantasy author regardless of the quality of their work, then you are in the wrong place.

This forum thrives on lively discussion and differences of opinion, and if you do, indeed, find it 'frustrating to read ill comments towards authors' (sic) then you are in the wrong place!

[Barbarossa]

I too, reserve the right to critizise who I want. I try to back up my critizism with arguments, I try to explain why I dislike something, and I try to avoid flames.

That doesn't mean I won't write things other people will take personal. Well life is tough.

As to realism, there are many levels of realism. The one I care about in fantasy is usually iternal logic, and consistency.
That means I usually measure an author by the rules he made himself.

For example you could say magic is unrealistic, but in a fantasy novel it's considered realistic. That shouldn't mean though that an author can pull just any rabbit out of his hat to safe his hero, he should stay in his own system.

Another example: The LOTR is mythical, epical fantasy, i wouldn't expect the same level of gritty realism as I would of the SoIaF.

[Bardos]

I agree with Barbarossa above, and I would have to add that
not realism in fantasy; logic in fantasy

[FitzChivalry]

Supporting Bardos' opinion.
And also Babarossa's, Shadowen's, erebus' and metsoblat's.
http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[wastra]

Actually, I do like realism in fantasy. Not just logic, realism. The author has to make me BELIEVE that things happen or have happened for reasons OTHER than him just telling me "This country has no race but elves living in it" or "This country hates another country."

Fantasy or no fantasy, humanity has certain truths and, yes, logic, that guide the way people act. Countries don't just 'happen', they evolve. Religions don't just 'appear', they grow. Relationships between people or countries don't just automatically exist without reason.

People don't just wake up one day and become master swordsmen. People cannot just change 'who' they are at a whim to suit the story. Characters should not be humble, no-nothing, indecisive wodsmen in one chapter, but suddenly have the knowledge/presence to command armies when the mood strikes them just because the author wants them to be great heroes.

All authors at some point violate such logic. the question is whether or not the violation is plausible. Every violation that is highly implausible makes the book much leas "realistic." Such happenings blur the line between literature and comic books. Authors that do this often throughout their works (like Goodkind, in my opinion) are basically comic-book writers who don't use pictures. I prefer authors that make their worlds three-dimensional with realistic characters- MArtin, for example. Goodkind isn't even CLOSE to such a realistic fantasy world or characters.

Another example- Have you ever held an honest-to-goodness sword? They are HEAVY. Try swinging one around ,baging it on a shield, finally hacking your opponent to pieces, then find another person, do it again with no rest, then do it again, and again, and again. How many do you suppose you could handle before your arm was so numb you couldn't grip the sword? Five? Unless you could land a killing blow on the first strike every time, it wouldn't be much more. Fights between armored men with any skill could last quite a while until someone tired or slipped-up. Yet some of the characters other people like can face 50 to a hundred people without any serious exhaustion. THAT'S an example of unrealism.

HEre's another example-
Why are there no poor people in certain books set in a medeval time? Why is NO ONE unhappy with their lot in life? How exactly does the king of a land keep his throne? why are some races just "inherrantly" good or evil? You might not care. Fine. Other people might not like this lack of logic without some clue or explanation.

If you like these authors, FINE! Hope you continue to enjoy them. But in a discussion about the talent of an author, or how good his work is, these things are legitimate BECAUSE IT IS A DISCUSSION OF OUR OPINIONS. And saying that realism has no place in fantasy is like saying that history has no bearing on a fictional work set in the present time. Writing fantasy does not make it easy on the author because certain realities don't exist- it makes it harder. Authors of fantasy create worlds, than must give us enough background to flesh it out, make it 'real', and make it believeable.

Modern fiction has the advantage that the reader is familiar with the intricate relationships that exist when the story is written in the real world. Fantasy does NOT have that advantage.

"It is a merely dreamer's getaway" as Zaku says- I say "Bull****" You may ask nothing more of hte books you read than a cool sword fight or a simple story of happy little elves, but some of us look for a bit more. And you call US the ignoramus, because we ask for a little refinment in the genre. Please.

If we buy into certain suspensions of disbelief-magic exists, elves walk the world, etc, the fantasy world, given those preconditions, must seem real.

[Rob B]

Whoa people, this is only Zaku's 2nd post, give him some newbie cushion. I dislike Goodkind as much as the next person. (I am now beginning to wonder if that his real last name).

However, if a person wants to belittle an author for 'killer chickens' (or anything for that matter) it is that person's right to do so, as long as they back it up with something.
Wastra Posted:But in a discussion about the talent of an author, or how good his work is, these things are legitimate BECAUSE IT IS A DISCUSSION OF OUR OPINIONS.

All fantasy needs a bit of believability or plausibility (i.e. realism) for the work to have merit.

Welcome to the forums Zaku, hope we haven't pushed you off yet.

[Bardos]

In Fantasy you can escape realism --up to a point. (It's all about escapism, anyway!) Even Martin "escapes" in some points, who is the most realistic author I've read. Thing is you MUST escape, but not overdo it. E.g., a man slays 20?! That's exagerating! A man, in fury, slays six, one after the other --not all together--, yes, I can accept that. After all doesn't Tyrion slay too many people, for him being a dwarf and having very little training in combat? Yes, BUT you don't mind (at least, I don't), 'cause the author presents it "right".