[Ntschotschi]

From time to time we discussed the topic of ecplicit sex-scenes on this board. There are quite a few people who seem to be repelled by their use in fantasy. But on the other hand noone seems to be disturbed by explicit scenes of violence, which make me sick, I must confess.
I have no problem with violence as such even when it is used in a drastic way, as for example by George R.R. Martin.If it belongs to an overall context of a story.
But I read Steven Erikson and Glen Cook lately and I found it repelling.
Deadhouse Gates: The whole book is about the slaughter of tens of thousands of people,desrcibed in details: Heads flying around, people dismebered, tortured, interspersed with some pseudo-philosophical remarks about the evil of it all.
There's no "good" against "evil" (which by itself is alright)but what is left? Only decriptions of massacres.
Am I dumb or can anyone explain the deeper meaning to me?

[James Barclay]

It's an interesting question and there is no doubt that both sex and violence have their places in all forms of fiction. But there is a difference between something that is necessary and something that is merely gratuitous and the opinion on one or t'other is often a personal one.

I think you have to remember that many fantasy worlds are violent, brutal places- let's face it, fighting with swords is not pretty and should not be dressed up like Errol Flynn. When you get hit with a six foot length of sharpened metal, if you aren't heavily amroured, something will come off and blood will fly all over. That the 'reality' if you like.

I'm in the sex and violence add reality to fantasy camp, but it does have to be credible to the reader.

[Habeed]

Welcome to the real world, buddy. You don't think that when the Chinese government runs over students with tanks or when Serbians "ethnically cleanse" Albanians that its a very pretty sight. I have no problem even telling my little sister about real world violence : its something that happens, and she should know the truth about it.

By comparison to the violence that happens on this earth every single day fantasy is pretty tame. At least the good guys win eventually. The men usually don't rape or abuse the women (with an exception cough*Donaldson*cough*)

In the real world, in some countries the bad guys, the criminals, are the GOVERNMENT. The CRIMINALS run the police. The CRIMINALS can rob or kill anyone they like for almost any reason (simply protesting agains the actions of these criminals who call themselves a government is enough).

Reality is far grimmer than fantasy could ever be.

Note that I don't show my little sister violent movies, as those are generally unrealistic. And I don't feel comfortable telling her about sex. (so no, I haven't let her read Martin although her reading level is easily that advanced)

my sister is 9, I'm 19.

[allanon]

Hmm...
Well,you know my opinion about the sex-scenes in fantasy,but I'll repeat it-I don't like it.I think that if authors write sex-scenes ,they write them only for money.I'll give an example-Terry Goodkind.In the "Soul of the Fire" the characters made sex,or think about that and the book was really awful.
With the violence the question is more difficult.On one hand,I like the describtion of battle-scenes,but I don't like a describtion of the "results" of the battle.Do you understnd me?I admitted Goodkind about the combat between Zedd and the monster in the beginning of the "Stone of Tears",but I didn't like the dying soldier.However,IMHO the problem of the violence is not so big,like the problem with the sex-scenes.

[Metosblat]

Did you know.....

That most people if asked whether they'd rather let their kids watch gratuitous sex or gratuitous violence, choose gratuitous Violence?

This makes no sense to me and I beleive that anyone who agree's with the above statement is truely a diluded individual who needs to rethink their philosiphy. I don't mean to offend, but a society that accepts violence before love is not a society worth living in.
By the way, I consider rape violence not sex.

[Erebus]

I suppose fantasy by its very nature will always have someone or something battling something else. Conflict is a necessary consequence when you have both a protagonist, and antagonist. I guess the story would be a little lame without them! http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

From a personal view point, violence is a natural requisite for any tale of conflict. I guess how explicit its desciptions are depend on the author. Being liberally minded, censorship is something I don't generally condone, provided the subject matter is commensurate with the work as a whole. Unnecessary or gratuitous violence is just that, unnecessary, and most probably only there to gain publicity.

Sex scenes, if handled with necessary respect to the reader, are also okay, but again, provided it is necessary to the plot.

But, no matter what our personal feelings are, there will also be opposing view points on a sensitive issue such as this, and we have to remember that this is primarily a Fantasy Forum and we need to be conscious of not delving too deeply into the area of social comment, for which I'm sure there are other more appropriate forums!



[This message has been edited by erebus (edited July 10, 2001).]

[Canaris]

I have a completely different opinion. When fantasy authors want to be take seriously they have to make their works a little more realistic . Some Authors really write as if purity is about the most normal thing on what ever planet. If I get to know a character I also want to know about his/her erotic life.

Most writers completely ignore this or make it worse by holding some moral supremety over their character which makes them completely unbelievable. Reading Jordan , I read about voluptuous breast but never once do I read that any of the boys are having a hard on.

Sorry but it sometimes looks like they really target for the 14 to 16 year olds.

Thank god for writers like Martin or Goodkind, who apparently feel , that sex is a part of every human being and even a instrument of power and politics.

[Bardos]

Violence and sex are a part of life; so, why not of life in a fantasy world also?

More, if you discribe a war, it's only natural to display the violence.

And note that I like the results to be SHOWN, so you can see the destruction. For, if it is not shown, then you'd think: And he shoved one metre of steel in his belly; so what? But if the results are shown, you can't think so what? now can you?

[Canaris]

By the way, ( i hope I am not gonne start some transatlatic war her but) I find it symptomatical for the American way of understanding

You find it in a lot of films as well.

Any film showing grafic violence sences is most probably allowed to be shown for juveniles. Show some pubic hair and the film is rated "Adults only" .

Now what is worse, showing heads being shopped of or showing the most natural thing on earth.

Just now a film is being released in Europe where one can actually see an erection. Porne,!!! everyone screamed. Why is it that we react so strong on an erected penis , but think nothing of it when we see parts of bodies flying everywhere.

The same aplies to fantasy novels.

[Barbarossa]

I have few problems with sex in fantasy, though if it has no meaning for the plot it bores me.

As to violence: I don't mind violence per se in fantasy, after all fantasy is usually about conflicts.

But i can't stand comic type violence, where excessive violence is used, but no one who matters is ever hurt.

I also have a problem with the attitude of some fantasy authors towards violence, who seem to think any violence is ok as long as the "good guys" use it, and deplorable as soon as the bad one do.
To name but one example: Eddings heroes would be considered psychotic killer in most societies. They only reason we see them as the good guys is because the author tells us so.