[Erfael]

(((This is copied directly from the SF Forum, but I thought it would be good to get the same kind of input here in fantasy, even though things are not as slow on this side of the forum. Assume we're talking about the Fantasy discussion group here.)))

Things have been pretty slow in the SF book club for some time now. Participants come and go, which is natural at an online forum like this. We seem to be at a point where there are relatively few people participating in the SF club, both at the nominating and discussing level. I'd like people's input, whether you've participated in the book club before, as to why you may or may not be interested in the book discussions. A few general questions just to give us here at SFFWorld a better idea how to set the club up in an interesting way:

If you've participated in the book club before, but do so no longer or do so on a sporadic basis, what makes it compelling at one time and not at another? Is there anything we can do to make it more interesting?

If you've never participated, why? Do you feel it's too intimidating? Too time-consuming? Didn't know about it?

Is the one-book-per-month schedule too fast? Would it be better to do a book every two months to give more time to read? Would it be better to simply have a list of "Books in Focus at SFFWorld" for a year or a quarter or so and just come along in a less formal way to discuss those books?

We're looking for ideas here on how to revitalize the discussion group and bring in some interesting discussion on new works and old works.

Let us know your thoughts and ideas, please.

[cougs]

...Would it be better to simply have a list of "Books in Focus at SFFWorld" for a year or a quarter or so and just come along in a less formal way to discuss those books?

Having an author(s), or a set of books in focus over a longer period of time, say a quarter, would fit much better into my reading schedule and style.

I often have long "dead periods", weeks or sometimes months, when I'm too busy with university to read much of anything. So longer periods would give me time to finish and not feel like I’m late. Also having choices to chose from would raise the chances of me being interested in reading a book club book. For instance, I was excited to read "The Year of the Quiet Sun" when it was first brought up a month or so ago. Well a month has passed and now that I have time to read, I find myself wanting to start a different book.

Having book in focus, or maybe a "theme" for a quarter of a year would work for well for me (more time/choices), but that’s just my thoughts.

[Arrgh]

I didn't know it existed.

[Amaunette]

I don't buy my books, I get them from the library, so my participation in the book club is limited by the availability of those books - some of the more popular ones are checked out, and the obscure ones are not available. The two other serious considerations are interest and time. It's sometimes hard for me to finish a book in a month's time, after I wait to receive it from the library, and my interests are fickle, so sometimes I'd rather be reading something other than what the book club has nominated at that time. Or maybe I'm in the middle of a long series (not that uncommon in fantasy) and I'd rather finish it than interrupt the storyline with a different book. A more minor considerations is that I don't always find the book club discussions that interesting. Actually they aren't really discussions, they tend to be more like short reviews, with little give and take between people who post the responses. Another minor consideration is that the books I would like to read have already been discussed, but at least the discussions can continue long past the month assigned for that particular book.

[Shayna]

Between work and doing stuff around the house, I do find it hard to read fast enough! Some books, of course, take shorter periods of time to read, while others, such as, 700 page books..do take a might longer.

I have never joined the book clubs because I find it hard to keep up with so many of you who read quite fast! I on the other hand...sorry to say... do take my time. I know there must be a time limit set, and I do understand this!

I also read more Fantasy and horror than other types of books. It also depends what everyone is agreed upon to read at that time.

Not saying that I wouldn't mind joining....just that like everyone.... maybe at times there isn't enough time to read or keep up!

I hope that I am making sense!!:)

[Severn]

Let's see, Erf. I'm a regular as you know in the club and I love it. I'm totally committed to keeping it alive.

Here's my thoughts:

I remember when I was a newbie here and wanting to join I did feel intimidated. I know that 'book club' is a generic term, however sadly the word 'club' does have connotations. In a new place I'm very timid, and I was a little afraid to add my unknown voice to those of the regulars, afraid I wouldn't be heard, or my opinions valued. I wondered if there was a criteria I had to meet to join, and couldn't find that out one way or another.

I'm pleased to see that you're trying hard to get the nominating back on track cause being behind hasn't helped! People need time not only to read, but to get the books, to wrap their heads around writing styles they're not used to, and to formulate thoughts.

In my opinion every current thread needs to be stickied in the fantasy forum. The Winterbirth one was, yes, but Ferrari's and Valente's haven't been. The Winterbirth thread has 1,300 views. Compare that to the Book of Joby thread (not stickied) which has 346.

Such irregularity is silly and doesn't help anything! Regular stickying serves a few purposes:

*It helps forum regulars actually become aware of the existence of the book club. It's not enough to have links to the club, we're lazy creatures and need things put right in front of our eyes.

*It takes away from the 'club' notion and helps foster the idea (truth) that the thread is actually there for everyone to participate in.

*If it becomes a regular habit to have a stickied book club thread in the fantasy forum, people will start to look out for it. (I hope).

Now, if people went to the book club forum looking for the month's discussion thread, the link is still there and just says 'moved'. Simple.

Which brings me to the current stickies in there: :eek:

The thread 'General Guidelines and Rules' is a mess, and needs retitling or just flat out removing. Definitely retitling. It's just a mash of discussion really. There needs to be a nice, new thread opened that states exactly how it works - the first thing people will read. Not some shambling thread started in 2002. It needs to say: At x time of the month we nominate. At x time of the month we vote. At x time of month discussion opens. And so forth.

People have come in and nominated new books on the voting threads because they don't get what's going on. Yes, the process is simple. However, the process has been a mess lately, and there is nowhere that clearly states it. It only becomes simple once you know it.

I reiterate: Clear guidelines thread. Not discussion. Just guidelines. Needed. :D

Editing to add: I believe the new thread should cross to the SF forum also. Perhaps horror. Same words, rules covering the two main book clubs. Organisation is good.

The Books So Far thread isn't updated fast enough. Hell, I'd do it myself every month!

Here's another thing: We nominate the books we want to read, yes, and then vote. Fair enough. However, some books just get bypassed time and time again. If new people are nominating and their choice gets squashed what's the incentive to return? I'm not sure of a way around this, as it is a fair system technically, but I think some thought needs to be given to it.

The what happened to section: (I went away for a year, came back, and things had changed)

What happened to verifying the availability of book nominations?
What happened to setting up questions (I know we pm'd about this Erf).
What the hell happened to Jack? He was great. Hehe.
What happened to the polls? Not enough people?

[Erfael]

Valente is now stickied in the main forum. I'll make an effort to get it in here every month. The old habits of it being in the club room are hard to break.

One thing to remember is that all of us here at SFFWorld are volunteers. The things that get done are many and amazing given our collective schedules. If something doesn't get done, it's usually on a list to do somewhere.

That said, I'll work on putting together a new introduction thread that's not as sprawling and intimidating.

As to the books so far thread, it's a pain in the *** to update all the links and such. If I could find an easier way to do it, it would probably happen more often, but that's another thing we'll try to get to more often.


Here's another thing: We nominate the books we want to read, yes, and then vote. Fair enough. However, some books just get bypassed time and time again. If new people are nominating and their choice gets squashed what's the incentive to return? I'm not sure of a way around this, as it is a fair system technically, but I think some thought needs to be given to it.

That's fair, and it's been a topic of discussion a number of times amongst both the members and the mods. It's difficult...see the section above about volunteers and time. I had a scheme set a while back that awarded points for discussion participation in order to encourage new people to stick with it so their books would stand more of a chance a while back, but it's just so work-intensive that the tradeoffs are not necessarily worth it.


1. What happened to verifying the availability of book nominations?
2. What happened to setting up questions (I know we pm'd about this Erf).
3. What the hell happened to Jack? He was great. Hehe.
4. What happened to the polls? Not enough people?

1. We decided that limiting the books was fairly artificial and that the democratic process of nominations and voting would take care of things if people looked into what was available in their area prior to voting.
2. The response to the questions seemed more limiting to discussion than promotional. It seemed that things devolved into giving short answers to the questions rather than bringing anything new and interesting to the table. I'm not opposed to questions or people guiding discussion if they nominated the books if that's something people are interested in trying.
3. I have no idea what the hell happened to Jack. I agree, he was great.
4. Something between not enough people and not enough books being nominated (which isn't in and of itself a bad thing if everyone likes the same book in a month).

[Corporal Blues]

I've really only joined into the book club discussions a few times, here, and I have to say that I did like it. It added to the reading experience, and in some cases, such as Ash helped me understand and fully comprehend the book. I will say that sometimes the discussions don't really feel like much more then people saying whether they liked the book or not, essentially giving a review. While that is great, and helpful when looking for information on a particular title, I personally feel that sometimes the threads are lacking any kind of true discussion. (Bear in mind that I've been party to less then 10 club discussions, so this may not be the norm, it's just what I've experienced). So maybe some sort of questions or issues that pertain to the book would help drive discussion, though I can see that this could also limit the discussion.

On the other hand, I really like the idea of "Books in Focus". This forum has been a treasue trove of book tips and information for me and likely others, this feature could lead to more discovery, and discussions pertaining to the titles. A quarterly books in focus thread would be a great addittion to the forum.

It would be a bummer to see the book club discussions die though, as it is pleasurable to join in from time to time, and talk about a book with other people, I especially appreciate it as I am the only one of my friends and family who reads SF/F, and the club setting enriches the reading experience.

[Nemo]

I am quite new to this forum but here are my thoughts on my limited experience of the book club so far...

I found the book club fairly easily and I wasn't put off by the term 'club' - actually I found it encouraging. The book club immediately appealed to me as a nice way of reading books that I wouldn't normally think to read - both new books that I hadn't heard of as well as classic fantasy books that I hadn't been aware of before. I also like the idea of discussing a book with other people who are reading it at the same time, since I don't know a lot of people who read fantasy. Also I like the way this alters your approach to reading selected books, looking deeper at them in a way I'm not really used to.

I have only participated in one book club discussion (the latest one on The Orphan's Tales: In the Night Garden). I bought the book when it was voted for and found myself really looking forward to the discussion about it. Although I hadn't voted or previously posted in the book club I didn't find it that intimidating, everyone seemed very friendly! There weren't that many people involved in the discussion though and so it was fairly limited.

I think discussion questions are a good idea as they give more focus to the comments made. I don't think they should be compulsory to answer however as that may be off-putting.

Putting the current BOTM in the main forum will help to raise awareness of the current book so that is good, but I was wondering if it is possible to put an announcement in the main forum at nomination time and voting time and then one announcing the BOTM once it has been decided? People may think it is too late to start reading the book only after discussion has started and announcing before hand may encourage more people to join in.

Changing the rules and guidelines to make it more concise and up to date would be helpful. I think I mainly got the general gist of the rules from how things had been done in the previous few months by looking at the nomination threads etc. rather than the rules thread.

I think a book a month is a good system. I think any longer period of time and things may tend to dwindle. It should be ok for people to read and participate every other month or whenever they have time. Also is there any reason why if someone is behind they couldn't restart discussion on a previous book? It may help though to get nominations and voting done a bit earlier, that way people could have two full months, or more, to read the book before the end of the month that the book is voted for.

I think the nomination system and voting is a fair one and I wouldn't be discouraged if I nominated a book and it didn't get voted for. However, maybe there should be some system in place for an automatic re-nomination, of a book from the previous month if it got enough votes?

[Raule]

I think online clubs have their own set of unique challenges above and beyond IRL clubs. And let's face it, all book clubs struggle with participation and in-depth discussions because almost no one reads on the same schedule and people will always have other demands that prevent them from being totally committed.. Frankly, I'm just happy to find a group of people who express an interest in at least some of the books I would like to read (I never meet people like you IRL!).

I have no problem with the moderator deciding to have us read a book that's been up for nomination several times, rather than by pure vote. I don't know if it would help both SF and Fantasy clubs if we started a separate thread once or twice a year where those interested in participating on an ongoing basis listed several books they were interested in reading (or own, but haven't read yet), and then whittling it down from what the group has suggested. It might give the moderator a better idea of what the group as a whole might be more inclined to read.

Erfael, I know it's a tough job being a moderator, so thanks all you've done so far. :D