[Hobbit]

Someone mentioned Ash again... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Gabe - you know my answer here. No I haven't.
Yes, I will (but i'm trying to work on the pile a little!).

Enough people here have said enough to suggest 'they're good 'uns'.

Not easy to get here in the UK though.

I'm working on it!

Hobbit

[neologik]

Shehzad; I KNEW it! Glad you liked! But I'm amazed that you're heading for ASH instead of rushing out for BLADE OF TYSHALLE, which is even *BETTER* than HEROES DIE.

http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

Hobbit; yes, you've got your failings, don't you? http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/wink.gif Nevermind. I'm sure that you'll get to it soon. Right? (OH, and by the way... weren't you going to send some reviews my way for Fantastic Metropolis? And FitzFlagg was going to as well.... hmmmm....)

--gabe chouinard

[Shehzad]

Actually, I have to have all my books carted over from the US or UK - especially the newer ones, and the last time someone came over I got Perdido, Heroes Die and Ash. I guess Blade of Tyshalle will have to wait for another relative to visit the US...

[jiels]

Hi.

The more I read this forum, the more Matthew Woodring Stover's name comes up. And this intrigues me because I do not like this author.

I tried to read "Heroes Die" about 6 months a go but quit reading about a third the way through. This is very rare as I can only recall one other fantasy book that I quit reading. That was a Forgotten Realms book (Crusades was the name, iirc).

Everyone else that you people bring up, except for the Perdido book, I have read and enjoyed. So how come I didn't like this book while all you mature, intelligent readers did? That's what I keep asking myself. And since this is a forum thought I would change the question round and ask you.

Why did you like Stover's Heroes Die? What was so good, so standoutish about this book?

I found it was dull, boring, and just plain awful. Caine was sooooooooooo over-the-top and ridiculous. The characters seemed very 2 dimensional with Caine akin to one of the "insert name here" cardboard heroes of a Tsr novel.

Here is a good example of what I mean: "I am strong. I am relentless. I am inescapable.
.
.
I am invincible. I am the Blade of Tyshalle.
I am Caine"

Thanks for this quote FitzFlagg, by the way.

Should I have finished the book? Would it change my perceptions?

I am not trying to be mean or anything. I am honestly puzzled as to why you all liked it when I didn't.

Just so you know and can understand my viewpoint. My favorite authors are; George R.R. Martin, Orson Scott Card, Tolkein, Weis&Hickman, and more recently, Dave Duncan. With honorable mentions to Feist, Jordan, Pratchett, Kay and Glenn Cook.

Thanks for your time,
just a newbie

[Shehzad]

Thou didnst like Stover and Mieville? HERESY!! Thou arest hereby EXCOMMUNICATED!!

j/k http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

Since I am the first of the Stover brigade to respond, I'll put a few pints down and then wait for FF and Neologik to fill in the blanks.

First of all, one thing I liked about Stover is that his book as a gritty realism about it. This isn't a fairy tale-people are going to get hurt and he makes no apologies for it. Like in real life, people die, and they die in ugly ways. Deaths are not always heroic, injuries are not always glorified, just like in real life.

Secondly, I found none of characters to be "cardboard" per se. First of all, Caine isn't your everyday hero. In fact, he's a cold-blooded assassin, and yet he's the hero. One of the villains, Ma'elkoth is a good king, someone who brings stability to the land. Berne has more of the characteristics of a villain, yet it could be argued that Caine's actions are just as bad. The only character who has the characteristics of a hero(ine) is Pallas Ril. There is no clearcut battle between good and evil, no sides, no heroic knights, no damsels in distress, no evil villains. Instead there are people with various motivations, mostly selfish, sometimes noble. It is a clash of motivations and interests rather than a humdrum battle of good-vs-evil.

Thridly, Stover doesn't preach at you. he doesn't tell you what to think about his characters - instead he just shows you the characters and lets you make up your mind. Someone I know though Berne had some characteristics of a hero - he does, in fact!! It's up to you to decide.

As far as the quote and Caine are concerned, remember that Caine is above all, an ACTOR. he HAS to be over-the-top, or larger-than-life to his audience. The quote "I am..." was at a time when he was mentally preparing himself to assume the mantle of Caine. Remember that he was going into a battle for his life against his will for the entertainment of others. Also, in the rigidly casted world to which he belonged, he was ultimately powerless and insignificant, while in the Overworld he is powerful, a force to be reckoned with. It is these contrasting roles that you have to keep in mind.

Hope you will give it another go,
Shehzad

[Rob B]

Caine a TSR-type hero?!?!? Read more...

Let's see In HD, many of the characters are dualities, and there is much inner struggle, especially with the Actors/Aktirs which is the real person, who they are on Overworld or who they are on Earth.

very 2 dimensional with Caine akin to one of the "insert name here" cardboard heroes of a Tsr novel.
How much of the book did you read? The characters are REAL, if they were like the TSR characters, you would have a tally of which spells/level they are and would immediately be placed as "good" or "evil." In HD, there really is not good or evil, there are characters who do what suits them best, actions and thoughts they feel and do to meet their ends.

The characters are driven by their own sense of right, when painted that way, and from each characters POV it's tough to choose sides.

Ultimately, Caine did all the things he did for himself and his love for his wife.

The fight and battle scenes are some of, if not THE best in any book I've read.

The book IS over the top, intentionally.

As for the quote you pulled from me, Caine as Shehzad said is an actor. Also, he is a fighter, a warrior. Fighters (and athletes) have to psych themselves up before each encounter, Stover puts the reader in the head of Caine, like virtually no other author CAN put you in their character's heads, save maybe Martin, John Marco or Robin Hobb.

..still shaking head about the TSR comment... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Shehzad]

..still shaking head about the TSR comment... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/frown.gif

As FF said: if this was TSR we'd know immediately: Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil etc etc. Also the TSR characters seem like someone's PCs transcribed into a book.

....joins FF in moping about the comment... http://www.sffworld.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Rob B]

jiels:

Give it another try. I had an extremely tough time with Michael Moorcock initially, now I want to read everything he wrote.

Honestly, when Heroes Die first came out a couple of years ago, I didn't give it a second thought, just kept looking past it in the stores. I am glad I picked up though.

[Shehzad]

FF: are the two of us - and Neologik - the only ones to have read this book on the forum?

[Sammie]

I can't find it. I have looked though!

Sammie.