[matthewajg]

In most fantasy novels, magic is intrinsic to the story. How important do you feel it is to "explain" a magic system in a novel. For instance, Robert Jordan writes quite a bit into his work regarding the nature of "magic" in his world, while authors like George R.R. Martin leave it a mystery. Does a deep understanding of the dynamics of a magic system enhance your appreciation of a novel? Thoughts? Feelings?

MOD NOTE: moved to fantasy, this really isn't a writing topic.



[This message has been edited by FitzFlagg (edited December 05, 2001).]

[Sojourn]

With the examples you mentioned, it seems that Jordan goes to great lengths to 'explain' the dynamics of magic in his world because magic plays a pivotal role in the story he's telling. I presume that Martin doesn't elaborate on how magic works in his world because it doesn't have a very significant place compared to other elements. So ultimately it may be that the author's intent to either unveil or not unveil the nature of magic in their stories may be influenced by the corresponding importance magic has in the telling of those same stories.

Personally I believe that readers do not so much appreciate the story more if it has greater or lesser detail (like an elaboration on magic systems or lack thereof). Possibly we appreciate the author's efforts if he/she goes through the trouble of expanding on things like how magic works in their stories, but in the end it's really how well the story is written that determines how well it is received, not the lengths authors go to to explain every single facet of their creations.



[This message has been edited by Sojourn (edited December 05, 2001).]

[Bardos]

I agree with what Sujourn said, that it's the whole story you like, after all.

I only would like to say that my opinion is that Martin has not thought about his magic system. It gives me the impression that he uses magic as he likes each time, for I can see not even the sahe of a pattern behind the magical things that happen in his world.

Of course, that does not spoil the story.

Personaly, I like magic to be kind of defined. Even if the author keeps it "secret" it's better for him/her at least to know.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

IMHO I think that the most original type of magic is the Jordan's type!

[Rob B]

Magic, when broken down like Jordan's is, is almost a science, with the various rules. After all, the guy was an Engineer and a Physicist.

As for Martin, he mentioned somewhere that they way Tolkein handled magic was subtle no real rules. In that sense, he is emulating JRRT, the magic is not concrete, it's unpredictable.

[Bardos]

Ageed FF. But using "unpredictable" magic, you're in "danger" of falling into holes.

POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR "A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE"
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E.g., it seems simple enough for Melisandre (sic) to give birth to these shadow creatures and kill whoever she wishes, but she doesn't do it with all of her enemies. And it is not explained why. So you're starting to think that magic becomes a tool for the writer, while magic should be (at least IMO) a kind of "natural force" in a fantastic world.

[This message has been edited by Bardos (edited December 06, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bardos (edited December 06, 2001).]

[jbcohen]

I agree whith what has been said here about Martin and Jordan. Although I would venture to say that in Martin's books one of the characters saw magic as beeing dead in his world.

Being the only Dragon Lance freek here can can say that on Krynn (the Dragon Lance world) magic plays a varying role depending on what time frame you look at. If you are talking about the Heros of the Lance, then magic plays a big role. If you mean the 5th age, it plays a somewhat minor role. So it really depends.

[alison]

Ian Irvine uses magic (he doesn't quite call it that) exactly as a natural force, a psychic extension of the earth's forces. But he is a scientist too. I quite like that, and also his subjective descriptions of the experience of it.

Myself, I like magic to have some kind of logic about it. Isn't the idea of magic deeply bound up with the idea of Law? In all the fairytales, there are rules: you have to strike something three times with a withy wand, or whatever - it's that human thing about ritual. And in a fantasy, if the author is just using magic as a kind of deux ex machina I feel he or she is being a bit lazy. I don't have to have it all explained, but I do want to know there are limits, or things that can't be done: and if the magic is done well, and part of the metaphysic of that world, it does seem like a natural part of it.

Alison

[Eventine]

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I have found that some of the fantasy series I regard quite highly are father frugal in their use of magic:
LOTR - not too much magic actually gets performed. Frodo makes himself invisible a few times, a flood washes away some Nazgul, etc. No fireballs, acts of god or anything like that.

ASOIAF - a few dastardly shadows doing away with people, the ability to see from a wolves eyes and a glowing sword. Once again, nothing too out there.

First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - OK, this is rather heavier in magic that the previous two I mentioned. People can use wood and stone to make light, heat and heal. A select few can blast fire from staves. The main point is though, that magic isn't as strong as it once was, and the main character cannot wilfully use magic at all - my point is that it is reasonabl frugal compared to a lot of other series.

My basic point is that magic is not the point of a fantasy story. It is just another supporting character.

[ookey]

It seems that many people like magic to be a scientific system which strictly adheres to rules that are clearly explained by the author (Jordan, Rawn, or Hobb's Farseer for example).

However, I think that when the author leaves the magic system unexplained, it does not neccessarily mean that the author is reserving magic simply to be a tool to advance the plot.
The magic system in many of these cases serves a specific pupose in the story, like to a supporting character as Eventine stated.
Examples of this use of magic are evident in Williams' MS&T, Tolkien's LotR, Martin's ASoIaF, and to a lesser extent, Pratchett's Discworld.

********POSSIBLE SPOILERS for the books listed above ****************************************
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In MS&T the Sithi use magic that Williams never really explains, you just see the effects. In this case the Sithi's magic serves to add some mystery to their alien culture.

In Tolkien, there is evidence of magic in the story, but mostly involves the use of the One Ring, which just serves to intensify the conflict of Frodo vs. himself (to succumb to the Ring's evil power).

Pratchett uses magic as another opportunity to create humor, and explaining this system would negate the somewhat random effects of magic on Discworld.

Lastly, and my favorite use of magic, is Martin's ASoIaF. Throughout this series, magic is used to create mystery and a sense of evil around those characters who practice it. Melissandre, for example, uses magic to assasinate her liege's rivals. This gives her an added mystique in the eyes of the reader. One unique aspect of Martin's magic system is the apparent connection between religion and magic. It's been a while since I finished Sos, but Melissandre worships a different god than the Starks, who worship the old gods; this is possibly the source of her power.
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