[killhus]

I have revised this topic, I would like some recomendations of fantasy books that arent dominated by recurring themes, besides what ive already read witch is, Scott Bakkers work, the Malazan series, Alan Campbell, Phillip Pullman, Brian Sanderson, Glen Cook, George R Martin. I no longer wish to discuss anything about the themes themselves, just looking for recomendations, thats all. I am not able to change the title of the topic, my use of the word cliche is in inacurate and out of context, what I really mean is Recurring themes. Thank you

[Seak]

I would like some recomendations of fantasy books that arent dominated by cliches. I would also like to know about the cliches people have seen fantasy novels. The cliches themselves dont necessarily have to be exclusive to fantasy, they can be ones used in all kinds of books and fantasy. I just wanna know what ones people have seen in fantasy books.
I wanna make clear that books with these cliches, and the cliches themselves are not necessarily bad, I would just like to see new ideas.

The ones that I notice alot are

A novel that begins with a premise that a long time ago, usually 2000 years, a Dark Lord, took over the world and reigned, only to be put down and imprisoned by a union of good people. Then the rest of the novel or novels is the story of how people stop other people who are trying to awaken the Dark Lord. (I have to say that there is nothing wrong with books that have this plot in them, I enjoy many of these books. Im just saying that is has already been used so many times and I would like to see more original ideas.)

Main characters that dont die.

The novel being a black and white story when the characters are distinguishe as good or evil.

When a character or group, usually antiheroes who don'tt care about other people or the fate of the world, starts a quest with this attitude and soon finds themselves saving the world.



Authors that express there political views and views of people, so extremely that it detracts from the plot of the book.

Authors who spend 90% of the time on character developement and character relationships and 5% on world building and 5% on plot developement.

Happy endings were not a single sacrifice was made for victory.

The use of "dues ex machina"

The presence of a generic "elflike" race that is immortal, completely and utterly good, and infinitely wise.

The excessive use of the underdog prevailing.

Magic being long dead in the world. With a group of characters questing to bring it back.
I'm pretty sure Erikson's got the exact opposite of all those cliches with the Malazan Book of the Fallen series.

Amazing world building, I root for characters that fight with each other, main characters dying, magic is very much alive and doesn't seem to have been lost too much, no elves, etc.

And it's just an awesome series. Did I mention that yet?

[Whiskeyjack]

Agree with Seak. Can't go wrong with Erikson (though some books take a little work to get into).

[Fruitonica]

Authors that express there political views and views of people, so extremely that it detracts from the plot of the book.

Authors who spend 90% of the time on character developement and character relationships and 5% on world building and 5% on plot developement.

These don't seem like cliches that are very prevalent in fantasy.

I think modern fantasy has shifted away from these tropes to a large degree, or at least subverted them in some way. Although I'm not very well read and mainly concentrate on the big titles.

I'd say that GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire would be a perfect recommendation, although magic has been reawakened in the world, it isn't through any particular quest, it's more of a side effect. There is a large cast of excellent, although not always particularly likeable characters. Characterisation is GRRM's strongest point, they are all well thought out, with very believable motivations. The plotting is tight, with a lot of political intrigue and the divides between good and bad are not always obvious. Although there is a larger plot device that does seem to represent the clichéd 'evil force', I've only read the first two books and I'm confident he would humanise that aspect when we see it properly. Someone more familiar with the series could clarify that...

Erikson's story is on a much vaster scale than GRRM's, with a very complex plot and detailed world building. Erikson does sometimes divide his conflicts into a good and evil side, but more often gives a reasonable rationale for both sides. The main villain doesn't appear until three books in, and he is indisputably evil, but at the same time quite sympathetic.
I love the books, but they might not be for you because Erikson does often make use of deus ex machina, this is in keeping with his world of incredibly overpowered magic and scheming gods, but there are a couple of times when it just feels cheap.
This is the Malazan Book of the Fallen, so of course happy endings are not the standard and themes of tragedy do run throughout the series, he creates some very touching scenes.
I think some people might regard the Tiste Andii as an elves substitute, and they are similar but with a fairly unique twist.

China Mieville's Bas Lag novels are some of the most original I've ever read, based in a gothic steampunk setting with relentlessly inventive world building, especially the races and societies he creates. Although he does have strong political views which do show in his writing, it isn't preachy. The focus of each book is generally much tighter than either GRRM or Erikson, and each novel is stand alone although tangentially linked to the others. I love his prose but some find it grandiose and overblown, you'll have to decide for yourself.

[Eldanuumea]

Sarah Monette's Labyrinth series doesn't seem to fall into too many of your "cliches." Neither does Carey's Kushiel series.
Perhaps Robin Hobb's books would do as well.

I have not been able to get into Erikson......may have to give him another go at some point, since his work is so highly regarded.

Fruitonica, I have to confess, after I finished perusing your "cliche" list, I found myself wondering why you want to read fantasy at all? LOL
(just gently ribbing)
I do relate to what you mean, though......there are so many formulaic copies of the same old same old out there. As if Tolkien didn't do it well the first time around!

[killhus]

Im just looking for new ideas thats all. I enjoy reading fantasy to this day. Like I said just because a book has cliches doesnt make it bad.
This past month i have read six fantasy novels. I am currently reading "Acacia" by Durnham, im enjoying it. It has a lot of new Concepts. I have read all eight of the Malazan books and I loved most of them, "Memories of Ice" being one of my favorite books of all time. I recently read "Scar night" by alan campbell. The "Prince of Nothing Series" is my favorite trilogy of all time. I just ordered "Seer King". I could go on and on. 75% of the books I read are Fantasy. Another twenty percent being sci-fi. Ill always love fantasy, cliches or not. Dark Lords an Dragons rule.
In know way was I saying that contemporary fantasy is bad. I just wanted to discuss cliches, and get some recomendations thats all. These cliches are what temporary fantasy is built on, nothing wrong with that. But now in the year 2009 these ideas are old, I just wanna see new ones.

[lily lane]

[QUOTE=Seak;506018]I'm pretty sure Erikson's got the exact opposite of all

Since you are looking for plot development vs. character development, look

into Rowan of the Wood by newcomers Christine and Ethan Rose. The plot

provides enough twists and turns to keep you guessing, believe me. There is a strong emphasis on plot development in the book.

[columbob]

A novel that begins with a premise that a long time ago, usually 2000 years, a Dark Lord, took over the world and reigned, only to be put down and imprisoned by a union of good people. Then the rest of the novel or novels is the story of how people stop other people who are trying to awaken the Dark Lord. (I have to say that there is nothing wrong with books that have this plot in them, I enjoy many of these books. Im just saying that is has already been used so many times and I would like to see more original ideas.)

The presence of a generic "elflike" race that is immortal, completely and utterly good, and infinitely wise.



Bakker sort of uses these two clichés in his Prince of Nothing trilogy and its sequel, although they're not really like that. His Non-Men aren't utterly good or wise or even generic, and his No-God is something else entirely. Highly recommended, but not for kids or the faint-hearted.

[l3gacy]

I'd say if you want to get a great example of a cliche fantasy book, read Eragon. It's so paint-by-numbers writing it's ridiculous.

Oh a poor farm boy who's real parents are dead and a super-powerful overlord. Farm boy lives on--wait for it-- a farm with a relative who will surely die within the next 30 pages. What is this poor farm boy to do? But wait the poor farm boy is actually super special and figures this out due to the help of a grizzled old guy from town with a shadowy past that will die about 200 pages into the book and give farm-boy-turned-super-magician-warrior one more reason to fight super-powerful-overlord. PS if you change the first letter of the farm boys name it says DRAGON har har har God I hate you Paolini.

[Rob B]

How about Cliches in fantasy forum threads? ;)

Fantastic horror without vampires/werewolves/zombies/other cliche monsters? (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21345&highlight=cliche)
The Cliche Book Title Contest! (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19051&highlight=cliche)
orphaned protagonists - convention, or cliche? (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18855&highlight=cliche)
Staple or Cliche (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18085&highlight=cliche)
The fantasy cliche??????? (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16718&highlight=cliche)