[tmso]

Hello Everyone,

I did one search for threads on this subject, and I couldn't' find one that addressed this issue, but maybe it's out there. If anyone wants to point me in the right direction, please do.

I've noticed several of the writing forum members are from other countries. At first, I thought these folks were English/American expats living in foreign countries to avoid criminal charges back at home. ;) (joke, that was a joke :rolleyes:)

But now I know better. These folks just know English (as a second language) well enough to write in it. Wow. I'm impressed. I can barely put two words together to form a sentence, and here these folks are doing it in another language. :eek:

Do here's my question (ok, there are several): Why? Why write in a foreign language? Why not in your native, first language? Wouldn't it be easier to write in the language you know best? Do you write in English because of this particular genre? Meaning, fantasy/sci-fi stories are not particularly popular in your native language? Or what? Are you all masochists who can't get enough torture out of just plain old writing you have to do it in another language?

Just curious, is all. :)

[SuperFede]

I can tell why me. First some about me. To me spanish is my first language. I speak english that to me is a foreign language. I also understand a lot of portuguese and speak a little, and i know a little, veeeeery litle german.

It all begun when I was in another job and we were in a project that was not in schedule and my boss had the stupid idea of showing how much extra effort we gave judging by the number of extra hours that we were in the office. Not by how much extra work we got done.

So, In an act of rebelion, late at night, instead of working i just sat at my desk and stared at the screen when a revelation came to me with the rush of cafenated drinks and trash food. Why not write a story? At the time I decided to try and do it in english, first reason to practice english and second reason so that, if i ever finished it I could actually publish it and make some money out of it. And so I wrote a little then left it alone, and went back to it some time later.

Until one day I finished it and in my search to publish it I found this wonderfull forum and realized that it was not as good as i thought it was and people began helping me to make it better. Then I began my second book and joined the workshop here which was more than helpfull. And still later I join the flash fiction contest.

And so here I am, still writing in english.

So, again, why english? Because in my naive mind I though that my stories and my books could reach a much broader audience and hence make more money. Yes, I know... keep dreaming... But i like my dreams.

Now, however, I no longer look forward to get rich from my stories and just do it as a hobbie. So Why don't I write in spanish? That is a good question but I have no good answer. I think I should, but I just don't. Perhaps when i find a real reason to I will.

was this the answer you were looking for?

SF!

[Taramoc]

My mother tongue is Italian, but I've been living in Canada (English side) for the last ten years.

My first answer is because the Italian market for SFF is very small. I can count on the fingers of one hand successful SFF writers (by successful I mean that can make a decent living out of it). That doesn't mean that Italians don't read SFF, quite the contrary.

There's a bias against Italian writers that don't write literary novels. The best story I've heard about this is about David Baldacci, the bestseller author. When his first book was slated for release in Italy, he got a call from the Italian publisher who asked if he could use a English sounding pseudonym instead of Baldacci (a quite old Italian last name). He looked out the window and saw an American sedan parked. "Sure," he replied, "use David Ford", and that's how his translated novels are published in my old country. Weird, eh?

The other answer is that I actually write a lot in my day job, and all in English. So it would be hard to switch back and forth. Also, I'm surrounded by English speaking friends, so if I want feedback, I couldn't really give them something in my mother tongue.

Finally, I second what Superfede is saying. This site has been invaluable for my progress in learning how to write in English. I've been part of the workshop since its inception in 2007, and if I read my first submissions and my latest, the difference is staggering.

Will I ever be a successful writer in English? The odds are overwhelming against me, but I’m firmly intentioned in trying. Don’t expect any public reading from me though, my accent would make it very difficult for the audience to understand (unless I do them in Rome) ;)

[tmso]

Niether of you have really said this, but I get the impression that writing is a passion. Of course, you wouldn't be doing it, if you really didn't want to do it. But writing in another language?

In your case SF, why did it even occur to you do write that first story in English? Was it because you didn't want your co-workers to know what you were writing? Or was it because you read English stories before, and therefore your stories just came out in English?

Taramoc - I'm sorry about the bias towards Italian authors. That sucks. I haven't read any of your work, but I'm sure you'll be successful.

But, I'm still left with questions. Or, maybe I'm just dumbfounded.

Though Spanish is my first language, I was born and raised here in the U.S., so I read/write/think in English. Every now and then I think in Spanish, but not very often. I imagine that the two of you think in your native tongue. Why not just write in that native tongue, and then translate to English? Wouldn't that be easier? Or is that what you do?

[SuperFede]

why did I write my first one in english? good question. Most people here can read english. Not everyone can write though. I have a better level than average in english for the people here. I chose english as a way of practicing it. Then it snowballed untill what i do now.

You see, even if everything here is in spanish i do kind of live a life in english. Most of the books I read are in english and most of the tv i watch is in english. I just don't have anyone to talk to in english, but other than that....

In my personal case I was taught not to think in spanish and translate. It's hard to explain, but when i do things in spanish i think in spanish and when i do things in english i think in english. My mind does get a little confussed when i mixed them or when i jump back and forth too much. The usual example of this is when i hear music in spanish and at the same time i am reading in english, or the other way around.

So, to the last question, no. It would not be easier to write in my native tongue and then translate. I can either write in spanish or in english, but doing it and then translate it is not a very good idea... at least not for me.

When I began writing I used a lot online dictionaries to find the words that i wanted. I don't used them much now except to find some very specific words...

[Scorpion]

But now I know better. These folks just know English (as a second language) well enough to write in it.

There it is, tmso. If you can do it, why not do it?

English was nearly like my native tongue at one point (when I lived in Cambridge) - I thought in English, spoke in English, even spoke to my brother in English at home. I read my first real fantasy books in English - LOTR and Hobbit. Then I read Garth Nix, Phillip Pullman, Reeve and Stroud etc.
Because 75% of the books I read were in English, and of these 100% were Fantasy, and I wanted to write Fantasy ... I didn't even ask myself "What language?" It had to be English. And I could copy and try to imitate my favourite authors, too.
Honestly, I think it would have been just as hard for me to learn to write in German.
Besides, I love English! It's simple ... and it has so, so many nice words ;)
The biggest problem for me was and is that I cannot speak English to anyone any more (the French may possibly be the worst in English in the whole of Europe...), which means I'm unaware of many idioms and expressions. I try to keep up-to-date by reading as much as I can - a hard task: my days are filled - but it's not the same, is it...

Yes, it has become a passion. It's half of my life :D

Why not just write in that native tongue, and then translate to English? Wouldn't that be easier? Or is that what you do?

Heeell no! As far as I see it, translation is an art on its own (especially in literary works!). That would take twice the effort!
I think you forget here that writing is not something you can just do. It's an art acquired through practice. So when you learn it in one language ... the thought of starting from scratch (okay, not from scratch, but you get it...) in another tongue is not very prepossessing.

It happens, however, that I know the specific word I'm looking for in German, but not in English, which is why I always have my English -> German, German -> English Muret Sanders open ;)

[Dawnstorm]

I haven't written a story in German in years (I'm Austrian, with no English-speaking relatives; my parents speak German and Croatian). I couldn't tell you why. It's just that English crept into my fictional life early on. I was listening to English pop/rock songs (and was writing dreadful songlyrics in English at 13); before that I was playing English language games on my Commodore 64 (many of which where text adventures; one was based on Nine Princes in Amber).

There's no particular reason for me writing in English. I find the language more attractive for fiction, and definitely more attractive for poetry (as German has more "dead syllables", that is syllables that give grammatical information but no content). By the time I picked up English philology at university, I'd already stopped writing in German. I went full-out English after finishing school, at around 19. I'd stopped reading translations of English books earlier than that but I don't really remember when (around 14-16 I should think).

Why not just write in that native tongue, and then translate to English? Wouldn't that be easier?

I never did this. Not even when I wasn't yet good enough at English to write in it. When I wrote in both languages, a story would have a language before I started writing. I really don't know how I chose, but there was never a conscious decision of whether to write that particular story in English or German. I just did either. It's like characters popping up fully formed in your head. There were English stories, and there were German stories.

There is exactly one story of mine that I translated from German into English. It was an experiment. Interestingly I forgot that I did this and thought it had always been an English story to begin with, until I found the original pair. Huh.

Languages come with a mind set. Translation is always only an approximation. If a perfect translation is possible, the story probably wasn't all that good to begin with (writing-wise). To illustrate: I once spent an entire day watching Sky-channel (in it's early days) and playing English adventure games. My mom came in to ask me something and I didn't understand her at all. She repeated the question, and German came slowly back to me. I wasn't even all that good at English, back then.

Similarly, humour doesn't translate well. Monty Python's in German (shudders).

So, no, writing in German, then translating, would be much harder. First, I'd have to make a conscious effort to switch to German while writing (English is the default now). Then I'd have to play arbiter between mind-sets - that is raise the essence of a story to a pre-lingual state, and then find a way to express the story in English (which isn't always possible - try translating puns, or metaphor).

An example of how German and English are different:

In both languages, people in authority positions can reprimand people using the passive voice:

For example, in English, your boss might tell you:

English: Such nonsense will not be tolerated!

It's easy to translate the words, but the equivalent structure in German doesn't have the same force. I'm not saying that a German-speaking boss would never say something like that, but it's not as... formulaic. It doesn't come with the same sort of conventional force. In English, sentences like these are target of the anti-passive voice prejudice. (American's in particular say it's vague or timid to say it like that; as if context didn't take care of the "who". Heh.)

So, German doesn't use the passive voice like that, even though it's possible. But this doesn't mean that they don't use the passive voice to reprimand. For example, a German might say:

German: Jetzt wird nicht geredet!

This is a structure that simply doesn't exist in English. The literal translation would be:

English: (WRONG): Now is not talked!

This is gibberish. English tends to express this sort of meaning with There-is constructions:

English: (RIGHT): There is no talking!

But this doesn't work in English, because there is no convention to read this as an order. It sounds like you're stating a fact, and one that's plainly wrong, too. So, if I wanted to preserve the structure as best I could I would say:

English: (MOST ADEQUATE EQUIVALENT I CAN THINK OF): Your talking will not be tolerated.

But that feels wrong. It's more pompous, less waspish; unsure about this.

So, no, translation is harder, way harder, than just writing in English to begin with.

[tmso]

Very interesting Dawnstorm. I do some translations (from Spanish to English, very limited from English to Spanish), but they are not from stuff that I create. Things like pamphlets and such (so not even anything creative, easy stuff like location, directions, etc.). What I find interesting is that you find it easier to express a certain tone in English, and not in German.

Hmm, I find there are certain words in Spanish that I can't find an equivalent form in English unless I translate it into a phrase or a couple of sentences explaining the whole meaning, but that may be due to my limited grasp of English!

Thanks Scorpion for your thoughts as well. I see that both you and Dawnstorm seem to have picked up English fairly early in your life, and that reading in English played a big part in what language you chose to write in. Makes sense.

Now, another question popped into my head after reading Taramoc's post:

There's a bias against Italian writers that don't write literary novels.

Couple of things actually:
1) As non-native English writers, do you think others might have a bias against your writing? If so, would you consider a name change to specifically hide your ethnicity? Of course, native English writers change their name all the time for marketing reasons. I suppose it is no different?

2) I think Taramoc's statement applies to anyone writing in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. Is this sentiment more entrenched in other cultures?

[PeterWilliam]

Hmm, grew up in Vermont, but where we were from (Grand Isle County), everyone spoke french (and I mean French Canadian). When we got to school though, it was english only. My reading/writing ability in french is very limited.

[Dawnstorm]

I do some translations (from Spanish to English, very limited from English to Spanish), but they are not from stuff that I create. Things like pamphlets and such (so not even anything creative, easy stuff like location, directions, etc.).

My only publication to date is translations of two poems from English into German in a Polish university mag (contacts via a translation workshop at an Austrian University), one of which got reprinted by an Austrian poetry zine. I'm very aware of subtleties in the English language, and it's very difficult to preserve both meaning and not clutter up the poem with unstressed syllables (of which German has a lot more).

What I find interesting is that you find it easier to express a certain tone in English, and not in German.

I've always been excentric, even in real life, and I never really fitted in. There's nothing that comes natural to me in the first place. When I get somewhere, I'm usually tongue tied, until I open up to the mores and feeling of the place. From that, I'm used to compartmentalise my manners, depending on where I am. I'm always slightly (to very) awkward, though.

When I'm not too nervous, I make a good diplomat,

Hmm, I find there are certain words in Spanish that I can't find an equivalent form in English unless I translate it into a phrase or a couple of sentences explaining the whole meaning, but that may be due to my limited grasp of English!

There are things between languages that just don't translate. Explain gendered nouns to native English speakers. That's a no-man's land between assigning gender to inanimate objects and not doing so that's very hard to explain. It's a sort of cultural gender metaphor that, unlike with people, is not tied to biology. View things are gendered in English (ships when named; the Sun, the Moon - when capital-lettered...), but they need to be specific. A whole layer that's impossible to translate.

Or try Japanese prefixes that indicate relation toward group-membership, or participant role: kore hon (this book here with me), sore hon (that book there with you), are hon (that book there away from us both). The this/that distinction is related, but it's not quite the expression of in-/outgroup membership and role therein that's playing a huge role in Japanese (maybe someone who actually speaks Japanese can explain this better than I; we had a few members, but I've seen none of them around recently).

1) As non-native English writers, do you think others might have a bias against your writing? If so, would you consider a name change to specifically hide your ethnicity? Of course, native English writers change their name all the time for marketing reasons. I suppose it is no different?

Like Jósef Korzeniowski (= Joseph Conrad)?

The fun thing: I don't have to ask myself the question. My name's Edward Vitasek. Yup, I have an English first name. Both my grandfathers had a version of the name (German and Croation), so I inherited the name, but my parents didn't really like either version, so I got the English version. It's in my birth certificate. The last name's Czech. Heh. I don't think it's causing too much problem, and if I were to published now it would put me next to (or close to) Jeff Vandermeer (whose name sounds Dutch).

Also, I notice great new writers on the SF short story market with foreign sounding names: Aliette deBodard (born in the USA, grown up in France), Paolo Bacigalupi (US-American, as far as I know), Vandana Singh (Indian)... Neither of them changed their names, as far as I know. So I doubt I'd change my name. [ETA: How could I forget Karl Schroeder (Canadian), who's got a more German sounding same I will ever manage, lol. Maybe, because he isn't all that new? Newer than R. Garcia Y Robertson, though. ;)]

2) I think Taramoc's statement applies to anyone writing in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. Is this sentiment more entrenched in other cultures?

The Austrian publishing scene is very small and mostly dominated by the German market. The biggest German publisher of SF is Heyne, which is almost all translations from English, though the amount of native German works is increasing. Wolfgang Jeschke (dead, alas) did a lot for SF; he edited a yearbook with fiction, business reports and critical essays from international sources, as well as a yearly anthology of international SF (which also was English dominated, though German pieces made appearances along with Eastern European entries; very few Romance language entries).

Then there's the Suhrkamp Phantastische Bibliothek, which is a genre series within a literary publishing house, but it seems to be hibernating, which is a pity, since they were actually quite good up to the beginning of the nineties, publishing new German speaking authors alongside classics such as Ballard (British), Lem (Polish), and Abe (Japan) to name a few.

Compartmentalisation of books doesn't seem to be as strict or as important as in England, and certainly not as important as in America (as far as I can tell through the Internet). Sub-genres are no concept at all in marketing as far as I can tell, and in most bookshops SF/F have a joint shelf (only very big bookshops - chainstores mostly - divide SF & F. Horror is often, but not always, separate. Since I buy mostly English language books, I just go to the foreign language shelves, where most of the time all the books (from mainstream to romance to genre to young adult to non-fiction) are mixed together (which I love!), but the selection isn't too big (which I don't love).

So, while I do think the genre market is bigger in the English language, the competition wouldn't be as fierce and the legal and logistic hassle wouldn't be as large. The market has nothing to do with my decision to write in English; I'm not even sure yet if I want to publish at all. It's not a major concern for me.