[Supersturg]

My wife studies literautre for five yrs at college and has read probably thousands of books, yet the only sff she has ever read is the Stand, by S.King. She feels that SFF is too easily written. Lets just say I was totally floored by this opinion. At first I was totally just speechless. Okay, her reasoning is this. It is easier to make up a world, it's people, thier customs. The writer can make anything happen because the story isn't grounded in our reality. Okay, I understand her point, I do, but what she doesn't understand is, are the complexities it requires to make this kind of story readable, believeable, and truly enjoyable. In every genre there is a lot of junk, this is true in Sff and all the others. But, I would just like to point out such beauties as dune, LOTR, Enders game, UBIK, I could fill a whole page just from memory. I have begged my wife, pleaded with my wife to just read, enders game, or anything by Philip K Dick, well Valis might be a big step for a virgin, right? lol.. I personally believe Sff is the most intellegent form of lit. because the mind of the stroy teller must be open to new ideas, new people, new thoughts. It's beautiful and should recieve more respect than it does. People who call Sff lovers dorks, nerds, and whatever else are people who fear something thats more than themselves. And they might be a little slow in the head too, lol...:D

[mylinar]

My wife studies literautre for five yrs at college and has read probably thousands of books, yet the only sff she has ever read is the Stand, by S.King. She feels that SFF is too easily written. Lets just say I was totally floored by this opinion. At first I was totally just speechless. Okay, her reasoning is this. It is easier to make up a world, it's people, thier customs. The writer can make anything happen because the story isn't grounded in our reality. Okay, I understand her point, I do, but what she doesn't understand is, are the complexities it requires to make this kind of story readable, believeable, and truly enjoyable. In every genre there is a lot of junk, this is true in Sff and all the others. But, I would just like to point out such beauties as dune, LOTR, Enders game, UBIK, I could fill a whole page just from memory. I have begged my wife, pleaded with my wife to just read, enders game, or anything by Philip K Dick, well Valis might be a big step for a virgin, right? lol.. I personally believe Sff is the most intellegent form of lit. because the mind of the stroy teller must be open to new ideas, new people, new thoughts. It's beautiful and should recieve more respect than it does. People who call Sff lovers dorks, nerds, and whatever else are people who fear something thats more than themselves. And they might be a little slow in the head too, lol...:D


Well, and I am not suggesting this as it might create an argument, but you could always say that mainstream literature is far easier to write. The obvious reason is all you have to do is look around you and write descriptions of what you see. Two people driving in a Chevy arguing about the weather. No real imagination needed there.

Let her defend her point of view for a change and maybe she will be a bit more sympathatic to yours. Why read a book about the current world, you could just watch the news or see a movie.

[JimF]

SFF is easily dismissed by those who don't understand it, or feel that it is only about spaceships and robots. BSG won a Peabody award, but not an Emmy because people cannot see past the surface.

In college in 1983 I had an English teacher assign 1984. The next semester I had the same teacher for a creative writing class. The first short story I submitted to him was, of course, SF and dealt with a guy who unwittingly assisted in religious based ethnic cleansing and the guilt that followed. My teacher's comment, "Your story was science fiction, but it wasn't." So this published author, teacher and PhD in English Lit didn't think 1984 was SF, or that a story that dealt with emotions, yet had spaceships could be both literary and SF. Some people don't see SF as a spectrum, only a flash gordon serial. What can you do?

I would suspect your wife probably has read more SF than the Stand and rather than try and get her to read something, maybe try and get her to recognize the SF she has read. Things like Frankenstein by Shelly, 1984, Brave New World, HG wells, Jules Vern, Handmaid's Tale and many more.

There is a lot of SF the literary elite refuses to recognize as Science fiction, yet decidedly is. This is too bad.

Jim

[Zeratul]

It's easy to write bad science fiction. It's difficult to write top quality one. Just as in any other type of literature.

What does it matter anyway? Many great works of art have been produced swiftly and almost effortlessly by their authors. Numerous terrible ones took many years and an awful lot of effort to be made and stull sucked. "Harder to write" doesn't necessary equal "better".

Okay, her reasoning is this. It is easier to make up a world, it's people, thier customs. The writer can make anything happen because the story isn't grounded in our reality.
I really don't get this though. Even the most ridiculous and lazily made up fantastic world takes more effort to create than to just write about the real world around us. And as any reader of speculative fiction knows, the writer can't "make anything happen" - there has to be an internal consistency.

I agree with JimF that that your wife has most probably read a lot more science fiction that only "The Stand", a lit major who hasn't read 1984 at the very least is quite unlikely. Maybe she's using the classical excuse "It's really good, so it can't science fiction".

[Supersturg]

I apologize, I see that you are right. I have of course read 1984. I was so busy looking at it from the Marxist literary theory point of view, I didn't even think of it as being science fiction. I also have tried not to be a literary elitist, I'm not going to go reading Harlequin Romance novels or anything, but I have defended the idea that Stephen King does not get enough credit. I've been trying to be more open minded. Apparently my husband has forgotten about the couple of books of his that I tried to read and that I want to see Avatar.;)

[JimF]

I apologize, I see that you are right. I have of course read 1984. I was so busy looking at it from the Marxist literary theory point of view, I didn't even think of it as being science fiction. I also have tried not to be a literary elitist, I'm not going to go reading Harlequin Romance novels or anything, but I have defended the idea that Stephen King does not get enough credit. I've been trying to be more open minded. Apparently my husband has forgotten about the couple of books of his that I tried to read and that I want to see Avatar.;)

Hi Supersturg's wife.
There is no need to apologize, I on the other hand should. I just reread my post and the term literary elite is not really what I was trying to convey. So I am sorry for labeling you as such. It implies snobbery and I had no basis to make that judgement. (I won't be reading any Harlequin Romances either.)

I worked in the academic environment for over 10 years, not as a teacher but in admin and services, so I know that academics can get quite focused on their speciality. Which may be a better term than elite. (I hope.) The fact that you read the stand should have told me something. The Stand is probably my favorite King book, followed by the gunslinger stuff, and I agree that he is under rated in the academic sense.

When I first read 1984 at the age of 18 I was none to impressed. Not enough spaceships and robots. Being more mature now I can see what a great work it really is. As I said before SF&F is a spectrum, and a very broad one at that. I am sure there are many other SF novels or short stories aside from 1984 that would appeal to you, but at the end of the day you like what you like. The only thing we can really ask is keep an open mind.

Jim

[psikeyhackr]

Okay, her reasoning is this. It is easier to make up a world, it's people, thier customs. The writer can make anything happen because the story isn't grounded in our reality. Okay, I understand her point, I do, but what she doesn't understand is, are the complexities it requires to make this kind of story readable, believeable, and truly enjoyable.

What KIND of science fiction?

I think this is partly an ego thing. The literary people want to just regard science fiction as literature and evaluate it strictly on that basis. But science fiction and fantasy have different dimensions outside of normal literature which would have to be evaluated separately. Of course the trouble with fantasy is that there is no OBJECTIVE STANDARD to measure that dimension against.

I remember watching the original Star Trek episode Courtmartial where Kirk says "one to the fourth power" and I instantly thought, "wait a minute, one to the fourth power is one, that doesn't make any sense." To me it is amazing that that ever happened. How could that not get caught? All they had to do was change it ot "ten to the fourth power." Did they notice and not care? Did they never even catch it. But I took 4 years of math in high school and got straight A's. We don't all have the same interests and priorities.

Then there is the episode Day of the Dead from Babylon 5 where Mr. Morden says the other end of a corridor it 200 million light-years away but the galaxy is only 100,000 light-years in diameter.

Morden told Lennier that the other end of the corridor was over 200 million light-years away, while Lochley said to Sheridan that she was 27 light-years away. Who was right? If Morden was right, where was the Brakiri section really taken? 200 million light-years is a distance on an intergalactic scale. The fact that Lochley was able to contact Sheridan in real time suggests that Morden was exaggerating the distance.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/lurk/www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/hk/guide/096.html

I caught that as soon as he said it.

If the science in a story is TOO BAD then for me it is unreadable. ST Next Generation bugs me with people passing out after 10 minutes because life support goes out. But isn't it interesting how their artificial gravity NEVER MALFUNCTIONS. ROFL

Oh yeah, rolling on the floor requires gravity.

So I think asking for good science and good writing from a single person is demanding a lot. So for my personal tastes I am willing to let the writing slide more than the science. But to me people that don't know the difference between science and science fiction tropes don't know what science fiction is. But we live in a high-tech society where people don't know a cam shaft from a crank shaft and can't fix a flat tire on a bicycle.

It's the C.P. Snow conflict again.

psik

[KatG]

Hello, Superstung's wife! I'm guessing you don't like suspense fiction much either.

[Dawnstorm]

There's actually research (http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~deenasw/Assets/weisberg&goodstein%20jocc.pdf) about what goes on in readers when their constructing a fictional world. What facts do they import? Also, there seem to be layers of reality, as this study (http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~deenasw/Assets/skolnick&bloom%20cognition.pdf) (and this one, too (http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~deenasw/Assets/skolnick&bloom-cosmology.pdf)) shows, which investigates whether Batman think that Spongebob is real.

[Supersturg]

Jim I just wanted to thank you. So, thank you! First of all you seem like a very nice person, thats quite freshing and nice, thank you. Second, you have finally opened the door of curiousity in my wifes head for SF. My wife and I have very deep discussions about theology and life in general, but I can't wait to throw in some heinlein, dick, maybe even herbert. But we'll take it one book at a time. So in closing, thank you very much Mr Jim F. you are a good kind person, and I hope you have a beautiful Christman and a happy New year! :cool: