[thehindmost]

I was just sitting around drinking coffee and pondering imaginary scenarios as I frequently do when bored, and came up with a wacky idea for a weird anomalous alien race, but with a few problems I'll get into after explaining the basic premise.

Imagine this, a barely civilized pre-agricultural species gets slammed with an ice age as they begin to make small jumps towards more intelligent thought and advanced technologies. They're star system is near a nebula, so they've always been entranced by the sky and stars. During the ice age they learn to build simple telescopes making ice lenses and such, and before even developing agriculture begin deducing things like their planet being a ball and orbiting around the star. They discover nearby planets and put together a rough idea of a solar system, begin working out the mathematics of gravity and such. Essentially building a core of astronomy and physics before real civilization sets in.

The Ice Age abates, and the basis of knowledge they built up and the philosophies developed from it lead to them rather quickly uniting into primitive civilizations and developing agriculture and fire based technologies. With the impracticality of ice as a lens then they quickly discover glass and begin building bigger and better telescopes. Study of the universe for self betterment essentially fill the spot religion usually would in this point of development.

And then the first kicker. They start discovering asteroids, and comets, and the further reaches of their solar system, and they find one who's orbit regularly passes very close to their planets. They discover in roughly a thousand years the comet will impact their planet.

Now hear you have a civilization barely centuries old, with a damn good picture of the universe compared to us at that point, well aware that in a thousand years they'll get smacked by a comet moving at hellish speeds, without the delusion that 'God' could save them.

They rapidly begin developing in an effort to be able to do something about it, developing gun powder and such and developing explosive propulsion methods, studying flying creatures and deducing the aerodynamics required for flight. They begin learning about the structure of the planets atmosphere. After almost five hundred years they're at the point of having mastered flight, achieving a booming industrial era, and discovered dozens of natural power sources for things such as dams and steam and thermal power, making goods strides towards discovering nuclear power. A few hundred years short of the comets impact, they've achieved orbital flight and begun establishing industry on their three moons.

The first mission to the comet fails because solar radiation kills the astronauts, they having been unaware of the dangers because they were simply rushing to deflect the comet. A second mission is launched with just enough shielding to protect the astronauts to get to the comet and do their job. With a number of rocket drives landed on the surface, they successfully deflect the comet.

Now the second kicker, and the point I've stopped thinking this through because theres just so many solutions and crazy things they could do. After five decades in orbital space, their star starts expanding into a red giant.

They continue developing and doing whatever crazy things they do to get out of their stellar system. And then there you have a civilization barely 1500 years old from hitting an animal with a rock to flying in space.

Now the problems, I'm not at all sure how much of this rapid development as practical at all, and I'm having my doubts about a strictly carbon based human intelligence creature doing all this so fast. Would it be biologically plausible for a second silicon crystaline based brain to evolve in a carbon based life form?

But theres my crazy idea from this morning, anyone wanna help me beat out the flaws in it?

[Sparrow]

Well, since we have precious little to go by, being that we know only of the life here on Earth and how intelligence manifests itself... I would say your scenario is impossible. For one, the making of a glass lense for a telescope isn't simply one invention, it employs several technologies, as does splitting atoms.

But perhaps not.
Where was humanity at a mere 2000 years ago?
We have come a fantastic distance in a relatively short amount of time, but, the revolution may be over... we're hitting brick walls. As for religion dying a quick quiet death? Everything we are learning from science tells us not only that God does not exist, but that a God couldn't possibly exist. Newton-Darwin-Einstein have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that God is a fantasy, yet, here we are in the new century with an overwhelming majority believing in some sort of superior being or supernatural force.

[E_Moon]

Where was humanity a mere 2000 years ago? As now, different in different parts of the world, but some had: running water, efficient central heating systems, public baths, metallurgy sufficient to work iron, copper, tin, gold, silver (with exquisite skill, when it came to jewelry), architecture some of which is still standing today, all-weather roads, textiles from both plant and animal fibers with permanent dyes for both, agriculture producing a wide variety of crops and also managing a variety of domesticated livestock, thus allowing long-term permanent settlement in many areas. Large empires (in more than one place) with central governments, long range (thousands of miles) trade relationships and thus spread of skills, plants, animals, etc. from region to region. Arts: highly developed literature, theater, music, painting, sculpture, ceramics, mosaics, and so on and so on. Even the "barbarians" produced items of daily use that were skillfully crafted, beautiful in design and execution. Biology--there were many breeds of the domesticated animals, specialized for the uses to which they were put or the locations where they had to survive...already by 2000 years ago, many varieties of crops, equally selected and propagated for special uses or situations.

Have we made progress in 2000 years? Sure. But though I would not have survived to my present age, 2000 years ago, I now survive in a degraded biosphere, among ugliness that had not yet been invented, and in a world with as much more poverty, misery, and injustice as it has more knowledge and wealth. I'm on the lucky end of things--I sit here with a roof over my head, a computer, an internet connection, food to eat later. But what is the real difference of those 2000 years to a child picking through the trash heaps of cities for a bite to eat...huddled in a cardboard box if any shelter at all? What is the real difference of those 2000 years to someone who has never shared, and never will share, in the progress we tend to boast of? Where is the progress, when rivers have toxic water, the air carries toxic dust, and land mines litter once-fertile fields?

Yeah, we've come a fantastic distance, and fantastic is the right adjective, because every single time we think we've found the magic button that's going to fix the mess humans have made...humans--that is, us--find a way to make things worse. It's fantastic how talented we are at screwing ourselves over. It's fantastic how we make the same mistakes over and over and over.

Over 2000 years ago, writers in two widely different regions commented on the stupidity of deforesting mountain slopes--one in China, and one in Greece. Clear-cut slopes eroded, they both said. Erosion led to more flooding, to muddy streams as well as scouring away the soil in the farmlands below the mountains. Fields became less fertile. And...still forests in mountains are clear-cut. In poor countries, for firewood to cook with. In rich countries, for money. It is to pull out the hair and scream, except that nobody cares if you do that (or they shut you up, one way or another. Some use beatings and some use medication.)

Our fabrics are no better, our jewelry no more beautiful, our artwork and literature no greater than 2000 years ago. But our messes can be seen from space. SUCH an advance.

[Michael V. R.]

Now the second kicker, and the point I've stopped thinking this through because theres just so many solutions and crazy things they could do. After five decades in orbital space, their star starts expanding into a red giant.


I don't like this part of it. Timing is too perfect. Something happens to their star JUST when they start messing around in space. I'd stick with the commet idea, have that be the climax.
I don't see any problem with the whole fast development thing, or the ice lenses before stable civilization thing. I think it's a great idea. A whole culture that knows when it will die, unless they work hard and develop some solutions.
Just some suggestions, but i'd make the early years a significant part of the story, with charachters with depth, not just gloss over it in a few pages. It could be an 'epic' story over a thousand years, with several 'sets' of charachters, each time period having it's own set, of course. Maybe even jump around the timeline a little? (i generally dont like when they jump around TOO much in books, but it can be done well)
Anyway, it's a good idea that, written well, would be a great story.

[Sparrow]

Where was humanity a mere 2000 years ago? As now, different in different parts of the world, but some had: running water, efficient central heating systems, public baths, metallurgy sufficient to work iron, copper, tin, gold, silver (with exquisite skill, when it came to jewelry), architecture some of which is still standing today, all-weather roads, textiles from both plant and animal fibers with permanent dyes for both, agriculture producing a wide variety of crops and also managing a variety of domesticated livestock, thus allowing long-term permanent settlement in many areas. Large empires (in more than one place) with central governments, long range (thousands of miles) trade relationships and thus spread of skills, plants, animals, etc. from region to region. Arts: highly developed literature, theater, music, painting, sculpture, ceramics, mosaics, and so on and so on. Even the "barbarians" produced items of daily use that were skillfully crafted, beautiful in design and execution. Biology--there were many breeds of the domesticated animals, specialized for the uses to which they were put or the locations where they had to survive...already by 2000 years ago, many varieties of crops, equally selected and propagated for special uses or situations.


But these empires you fondly mention were built and maintained primarily by two things and two things only, military force and slave labor. Those temples and government buildings, the beautiful courtyards and houses of the wealthy, roads and aqueducts, were the result of a system of social stratification where the very few ruled unsympathetically over the many.
Do you have any idea what the rough ratio of slaves to citizens was during the height of the Roman Empire?

If what you really yearn for is justice in the world, then I ask you to picture a waterbuck being eaten alive by a pack of hyenas. That is the reward for slacking. How many of the impoverished deserve their lot?.. did they not come by it by birthright?



I sure hope you're not one of those liberals who shakes her fist at the world from the porch of a million dollar ranch house and still expect to be taken seriously.

[mylinar]

I was just sitting around drinking coffee and pondering imaginary scenarios as I frequently do when bored, and came up with a wacky idea for a weird anomalous alien race, but with a few problems I'll get into after explaining the basic premise.

Imagine this, a barely civilized pre-agricultural species gets slammed with an ice age as they begin to make small jumps towards more intelligent thought and advanced technologies. They're star system is near a nebula, so they've always been entranced by the sky and stars. During the ice age they learn to build simple telescopes making ice lenses and such, and before even developing agriculture begin deducing things like their planet being a ball and orbiting around the star. They discover nearby planets and put together a rough idea of a solar system, begin working out the mathematics of gravity and such. Essentially building a core of astronomy and physics before real civilization sets in.

But theres my crazy idea from this morning, anyone wanna help me beat out the flaws in it?

My issues with this idea, and I use the term not in a negative tone, are just that a pre-agricultural civilization is essentially a hunter-gatherer one. In societies like this there is seldom room for anything that is not belly-filling practical. Agriculture is what allowed the development of the 'leisure class' that included Artists and Scientists.
Second one is that ice is seldom so clear, unless specifically made that way from distilled water, that you could create lenses from it. I can't prove this but it seems logical.

However those are easy issues to fix and the premise is interesting. I also agree that maybe stopping with the comet could be the climax of the story. I hope you follow through with it and make a good story.

[Final07]

But these empires you fondly mention were built and maintained primarily by two things and two things only, military force and slave labor. Those temples and government buildings, the beautiful courtyards and houses of the wealthy, roads and aqueducts, were the result of a system of social stratification where the very few ruled unsympathetically over the many.
Do you have any idea what the rough ratio of slaves to citizens was during the height of the Roman Empire?
.

There are 27 million slaves worldwide. That's triple the population of New York City plus more. :)

That's a lot of slaves.

[thehindmost]

My issues with this idea, and I use the term not in a negative tone, are just that a pre-agricultural civilization is essentially a hunter-gatherer one. In societies like this there is seldom room for anything that is not belly-filling practical. Agriculture is what allowed the development of the 'leisure class' that included Artists and Scientists.
Second one is that ice is seldom so clear, unless specifically made that way from distilled water, that you could create lenses from it. I can't prove this but it seems logical.

However those are easy issues to fix and the premise is interesting. I also agree that maybe stopping with the comet could be the climax of the story. I hope you follow through with it and make a good story.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but actually most of the things I've read on hunter gatherers put most of the food supply in the catergory of gathering plants and nuts and fruits, 80% or so of all their food being that. This would only require occasionally hunting down a few animals, taking maybe a few hours each day for skilled hunters. This would leave more time for leisure activities and studies than even in modern day society. But thank you for suggesting stopping at the comet, I just had what seemed an epic idea in my head and just didn't know when to stop.

[Sparrow]

There are 27 million slaves worldwide. That's triple the population of New York City plus more. :)

That's a lot of slaves.


That may well be, but it's a drop in the bucket compared with the Imperial Roman Empire and the slave population within Italy itself. Remember, we're talking percentages not sheer numbers.

The same kind of caution needs to be exercised in attempting to arrive at a figure for slaves in Italy for the same period. Passages in the Satyricon (e.g. 37;47;53) would suggest that some households had vast numbers. But that work is of course fiction - though the references to slave numbers there can only have point if certain private individuals did own a lot of slaves. Overall, a figure of around two million slaves out of a population of about six million at the time of Augustus would perhaps seem right (again we follow Hopkins). If so, approximately one in every three persons in Rome and Italy was a slave.


Even lower estimates have the slave to citizen ratio at 1:4.

I really am at a loss to explain how E.Moon figures we haven't come so far in 2,000 years.
Perhaps she's attended one to many a renaissance faire and believes things were pretty darn good back then.

[thehindmost]

well I've come up with a basic story arc, if anyone would like to help shoot out the problems further.

a stupid little plot ploy I came up with to allow for gathering to supply most of the food instead of hunting in an ice age. gigantic patches of edible fungi in caves along mountains.

Part One of Arc: Pretty much the tale of a tribe of this species on a mountainside in and around one of these fungi filled cave systems. They've already developed their ice lenses and started studying the stars, have found close by planets and started learning lots about math, especially circles and such plotting the orbits. Main character would be the one who found the comet and saw it crossed orbits with the planet and started calculating the orbits far into the future. The story of him figuring out about the collision and convincing the tribe pretty much.

Part Two of Arc: After the end of the Ice Age that tribe began spreading out, showing other tribes of the comets orbit and the consequences, slowly building up a Nation of Tribes. Part two would take place after they've achieved an agricultural civilization. Stupid things have been done in the past, like trying to build monuments up to the stars, but they realized how impossible it was. Have a rough guess at how the atmosphere extends far out and such, and how an orbit would work because of their three moons. Most 'research' at this point would be into making flying machines. The main story would be the dictators in power dealing with a growing religious revolt against tinkering with the universe, spawned mostly by the ridiculous living conditions in a civilization advancing so fast. They would be at like a Greco-Roman/Egyptian stage here, possibly slightly more advanced in some fields.

Part Three of Arc: They've reached an industrialized phase, powered by steam and coal and such, some areas of technology lagging behind, others slightly ahead. Main character here would be a scientist attempting to crack the secret of nuclear fission. Possibly a war as part of the plot here, the religious revolt from the Egyptian era having developed into a whole seperate group of nations. War would be fought over protests by the other religious descended nations of what the others are doing to the ecosystem to advance so rapidly. End in the genocide of the religious Nations to allow them to progress fast enough?

Part Four of Arc: The ecosystem is ravaged, they've achieved nuclear power, and fusion(maybe?). They've established the infrastructure in space to build the first ship to go to the comet. Then the disaster of that failing and the discovery for need to shield astronauts from cosmic rays. This part of the tale would be them rushing with maybe a year or so until impact to construct the other ship and get it to the comet before its too late.

Ta da, what ya think?