[bobnagga]

So everywhere I look around here, I see 'get an editor' this and 'pay a professional' that. What do you guys do when you don't have the money to pay someone to read your book? I mean, I'm fully aware that I won't get every single nit picking detail in there, but I'm also aware that it needs to be done... What's a guy with kids and bills to do?

[shevdon]

What's a guy with kids and bills to do?

Firstly, most writers do not pay out for editing services. That's usually only the case where the author intends to self-publish. In general the rule is that money flows to the author, not the other way around. Self publishing reverses this as you become publisher as well as author.

In the normal scenario, you submit a self-edited MS (manuscript) to a publisher, the editor reads it and (usually) asks for revisions, the revisions are written and re-submitted. The MS then goes to a copy editor who corrects mistakes and makes the MS conform to house style, this produces a final version which the author checks to make sure the copy editor hasn't changed anything essential by mistake, and then it goes to print. All of that only happens once the MS has been accepted by a publisher.

Before that, you need to submit your MS to agents and/or publishers to see if they will publish your work. There are lots of posts on this forum on the trials and tribulations of doing this, suffice to say that it is in your interests for the MS to be in as good a state as possible, BEFORE you submit to an agent or publisher.

This can be achieved in a number of ways without paying through the nose.

1) Join a writing group.

Many writing groups have sessions where writers meet at a mutually convenient time and venue to critique each other's work. Find one that you can attend regularly and commit to it. If you can, try and ensure that it is objectively critical, that is to say, not a mutual appreciation society, nor a masochism session. A good moderator for the group helps.

2) Join an on-line critique group.

There are a number of these. Critters (http://www.critters.org/) is probably the most well known for SF, Horror and Fantasy. I am a member of Critters, off and on, and have found it to be well-run and very helpful. Writer's cafe is another one. There are others, some of which are paid membership. Note that paid does not necessarily mean better.

3) Find an Exchange Pal.

Find another writer at a similar stage in their writing with whom you agree to exchange work and critique for each other. These can work very well if you get the right combination of people and can result in lifelong friendship. They can also dissolve into mutual hatred, so be careful.

4) Join a Writer's Forum

Forum's like SFFWorld have forums specifically for writers (like this one), where you can get feedback on your work, your proposed query letters, synopses and other related artefacts. They are generally well-moderated and have a sense of community, which can help if you are isolated. They tend not to be suitable for critiquing long work (eg: over 15K words) but some have arrangements for this. Forums can also be a way fo finding an Exchange Pal (see above).


The cost of all of the above is reciprocated time.

If you expect other people to critique your work for free then you are expected to do that for them too. In a group that means you take your turn with everyone else. In a forum you are expected to participate fully. In something like Critters you are expected to earn credits before using them.

This is not a bad thing. Learning to critique the work of others objectively is an extremely useful skill for a writer and is an essential step to learning to critique your own work objectively. If you critique regularly you will begin to see your own mistakes in the work of others; always a sobering moment, and will learn to step back from what you've written when you are editing it (what writers often refer to as switching into editing mode).

With all of the above, the rule is to critique the writing, not the person. At all times you should try and be diplomatic when critiquing the work of others. Bear in mind that other writers are at different stages in their work. Some may still be learning the basics where others are readying for publication. They may write things that are not to your taste, or say things in their writing that you find offensive - even so, it is the writing you critique, not the writer.

All of these options are available to you at minimal cost. You may think that critiquing is a distraction from writing, but it's not, it's a part of writing and one that you would be well-advised to spend time on. You will be glad you did.

The great thing is that we all started somewhere, and maybe you could be helping the next Stephen King or JRR Tolkien take their first hesitant steps.

Or maybe that's you :)

[Laer Carroll]

Excellent answer. Can't think of anything to add or explain more.

I do want to repeat the admonition to find a group that does more than compliment each other. The first time I took part in a weekend workshop of writers critiquing each other I received some negative criticism. It hurt and angered me even though it had been done diplomatically and without malice.

Two days later I received comments on the same manuscript in a college creative-writing class. No one found fault. And I sorely missed the tough but fair criticism of the workshop. Their specific and detailed comments helped me make my work better. The class comments would have left me a self-satisfied fool.

[kmtolan]

Sometimes repetition is a good think.

What Shevdon said.

Myself, I have an online writer's group that each of my novels gets run through for line-edits, chapter by chapter. We have several published authors in the group, and all of us share a common background where we met in the old IPub days. They edit me and I edit them.

Your greatest challenge at this point will be making connections. A local writer's group (you can query the nearest creative writing teacher) can get you leads. You can also peruse Yahoo Groups and others. Google is your friend. Avoid the groups that are absolutely huge - you need personalized attention so try and find a group that is small. If you are lucky, the group will already have one professional writer on board.

Kerry

[bobnagga]

Well, that makes me feel better. I didn't really want to pay anyone to help me do this so that's awesome. I'm definitely going to check out those sites after I take the daughter to school!

[Jennifer P]

Another reason not to is that real editors get somewhat...wary...when they find out a writer used an editing service. I have a friend who's an editor, and she says it very often means the writer does not know how to do their own rewriting, editing and revisions.

Then when the publisher says 'change this', the writer collapses in a ball of fluster because they don't actually know what they are doing.

Self publishing is another matter...but if you're self publishing, you should really be looking for somebody who calls herself a 'book shepherd'...these people are consultants you hire to advise on editing, marketing, cover design, which printers are good, etc. They don't come cheap...but self publishing isn't cheap. It's a risky, expensive endeavor that you should think long and hard before doing.

[bobnagga]

Another reason not to is that real editors get somewhat...wary...when they find out a writer used an editing service. I have a friend who's an editor, and she says it very often means the writer does not know how to do their own rewriting, editing and revisions.

Then when the publisher says 'change this', the writer collapses in a ball of fluster because they don't actually know what they are doing.

Self publishing is another matter...but if you're self publishing, you should really be looking for somebody who calls herself a 'book shepherd'...these people are consultants you hire to advise on editing, marketing, cover design, which printers are good, etc. They don't come cheap...but self publishing isn't cheap. It's a risky, expensive endeavor that you should think long and hard before doing.

Well, it's good that it doesn't have to be perfect from the get-go. Just as close to perfection as I can manage. That's doable, guys, and thanks!

[Sterling13]

Well, that makes me feel better. I didn't really want to pay anyone to help me do this so that's awesome. I'm definitely going to check out those sites after I take the daughter to school!

Are you looking for line-by-line editing, or per-chapter feedback?

The reason that I'm asking: I have a book that I finished (or thought I had finished) last year that I'm looking to get another set of eyes on. Perhaps we could work something out.

The catch(es):
- Although it has went through many (many) edits, I know it is not up to the quality (such as it is) of my current writing, so the reading may be a bit ugly in parts
- The story is 170,000 words


All in all, I'm not looking for line edits, just overall impressions of each chapter (a paragraph or two on each) plus some final thoughts at the end.

PM me if you (or anyone else) is interested in an critique exchange.

[bobnagga]

no, not the line by line thing, I can handle that, I just want to know if it's a good story and that everything makes sense and has logical consistency and all that jazz. Like I found one part where one guy was telling about something that happened, then later on, the guy found out about it. That's the stuff I'm talking about.

[bobnagga]

PM me if you (or anyone else) is interested in an critique exchange.

So this is getting the wheels in my head a-spinnin. Is there say a forum or dedicated thread for that around here? And if not, why not? Would the mods be against such a thing in here, or are there technical difficulties involved that I can't think of because I'm not a programmer?

Seems like it would be fairly simple to implement if we were to use our regular mail accounts with no limits on attachments and such, it would be easy to give and get said MS's... With a stickied thread or something...

I mean, here we are in the writers forum on sffworld.com, but there's just really a bunch of random threads asking for critiques and I've noticed that they get passed over for the most part unless it's a short piece that can fit in one of these little text boxes like the one I'm using right now.

Maybe it could be set up like the flashfic contests with a rules of the game in front, i.e. MuSt be complete manuscripts,etc.

Any thoughts?