[Alchemist]

The thread "I Hate Magic" (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27675&page=2), in particular BettyCross's assertion about Achilles and Superman needing their weaknesses, got me wondering what books have followed extremely powerful protagonists and done so successfully.

An interesting study on a powerful protagonist is R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing. When I started reading it was I was intrigued by Kellhus but gradually grew tired of just how powerful, especially in terms of omniscience, he was. The very flawed Achamian became a much more interesting character and, of course, it is Achamian who is the main viewpoint character.

Comic books deal with enormously powerful characters but they are counter-balanced with enormously powerful villains. And of course they are sort of a hybrid between book and movie, so relating with the characters is less important than enjoying watching them do their thing. An interesting character is Phoenix from the 1970s X-Men, who became a nearly omnipotent Dark Phoenix, ended up causing a supernova that destroyed a planet of billions, but was eventually defeated, not through power but her own humanity surfacing. But she, like Kellhus, became less of a protagonist the more powerful she became.

Another instant is Drizzt Do'Urden in RA Salvatore's earlier books. I haven't read them in fifteen or sixteen years but I remember losing interest with Legacy because I got tired of reading Salvatore's endless descriptions of just how amazing Drizzt was with his twin scimitars.

Now part of the appeal of fantasy books is that the protagonist is almost always quite remarkable in some way, and may be the best at something of extreme important to the world or story. But there is a fine line where it becomes too much. Salvatore crossed the line with Drizzt in Legacy, although it may be that he had crossed the line well before that but I only noticed it then and probably only then because I was an adult (I read the first two series as they came out as a teenager).

So the questions: Who are some believable, enjoyable, and relatable uber-powerful protagonists? And what are some examples where the line is crossed and a protagonist becomes too powerful? How powerful can a protagonist be without crossing this line and what are some strategies that writers use to carry a powerful protagonist?

[jackal912]

As I mentioned in the last topic, two of the biggest ones that do 'extremely powerful' well that come to mind are Zelazny's "Amber" series, and Fallon's "Tide Lords" series. There are quite a few more on the tip of my tongue, but those are the ones most easily definable as such - all the main characters, are, for all intents and purposes, immortal, incredibly powerful, gods. The entire plots of both the series in question actually seem to revolve around the ramifications of having so much power (though far more so in Tide Lords, the Amber family mellows out a bit while the Tide Lords fall off new cliffs of insanity), which turns almost everyone into pretty unpleasant people. 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely', so to speak, which makes the books, in a way, a conflict against the nature of power itself.

[Andols]

The thread "I Hate Magic" (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27675&page=2), in particular BettyCross's assertion about Achilles and Superman needing their weaknesses, got me wondering what books have followed extremely powerful protagonists and done so successfully.

An interesting study on a powerful protagonist is R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing. When I started reading it was I was intrigued by Kellhus but gradually grew tired of just how powerful, especially in terms of omniscience, he was. The very flawed Achamian became a much more interesting character and, of course, it is Achamian who is the main viewpoint character.

Comic books deal with enormously powerful characters but they are counter-balanced with enormously powerful villains. And of course they are sort of a hybrid between book and movie, so relating with the characters is less important than enjoying watching them do their thing. An interesting character is Phoenix from the 1970s X-Men, who became a nearly omnipotent Dark Phoenix, ended up causing a supernova that destroyed a planet of billions, but was eventually defeated, not through power but her own humanity surfacing. But she, like Kellhus, became less of a protagonist the more powerful she became.

Another instant is Drizzt Do'Urden in RA Salvatore's earlier books. I haven't read them in fifteen or sixteen years but I remember losing interest with Legacy because I got tired of reading Salvatore's endless descriptions of just how amazing Drizzt was with his twin scimitars.

Now part of the appeal of fantasy books is that the protagonist is almost always quite remarkable in some way, and may be the best at something of extreme important to the world or story. But there is a fine line where it becomes too much. Salvatore crossed the line with Drizzt in Legacy, although it may be that he had crossed the line well before that but I only noticed it then and probably only then because I was an adult (I read the first two series as they came out as a teenager).

So the questions: Who are some believable, enjoyable, and relatable uber-powerful protagonists? And what are some examples where the line is crossed and a protagonist becomes too powerful? How powerful can a protagonist be without crossing this line and what are some strategies that writers use to carry a powerful protagonist?

I dont think I've ever seen one that was completely over the top. There are plenty of characters that recieve the gift of amazing luck or other deus ex machina related events, but I cant really think of any that or just so damn powerful that they get uninteresting.

Bakker balanced kellhus really well I think. And he was so much removed from aspect emperor that he didnt seem so godly.

Some of Erikson's characters are pretty intense, but the viewpoitns vary so often it keeps it interesting.

[Alchemist]

I dont think I've ever seen one that was completely over the top. There are plenty of characters that recieve the gift of amazing luck or other deus ex machina related events, but I cant really think of any that or just so damn powerful that they get uninteresting.

Bakker balanced kellhus really well I think. And he was so much removed from aspect emperor that he didnt seem so godly.

Some of Erikson's characters are pretty intense, but the viewpoitns vary so often it keeps it interesting.

I think what irked me about Kellhus--and maybe I was supposed to be irked--was less his power and more that he had absolutely no (or very, very little) vulnerability, which made him rather unlikeable. I think that's the key to balancing power: coupling it with vulnerability, which is what Betty Cross was getting at. But as someone mentioned in that other thread it doesn't have to be physical weakness.

Yeah, I forgot about Erikson. His story is populated with demi-gods--Anomander Rake, Icarium, Caladan Brood, Silverfox, Kallor, etc--but rarely are they viewpoint characters.

[Andols]

I think what irked me about Kellhus--and maybe I was supposed to be irked--was less his power and more that he had absolutely no (or very, very little) vulnerability, which made him rather unlikeable. I think that's the key to balancing power: coupling it with vulnerability, which is what Betty Cross was getting at. But as someone mentioned in that other thread it doesn't have to be physical weakness.

Yeah, I forgot about Erikson. His story is populated with demi-gods--Anomander Rake, Icarium, Caladan Brood, Silverfox, Kallor, etc--but rarely are they viewpoint characters.

I found kellhus pretty vulnerable. he was captured after all, and pretty much fought to a draw with that non-man at the start of the first book. at least until me got the gnosis. not sure if you read the new book but there appears to be more vulnerabilty on the way.

im trying to think of a protagonist who is really high powered and not really vulnerable in some fashion. fantasy has so many reluctant hero's its hard to remember one.

[Metal-Demon]

When is it too much?

When I begin hoping that something, anything, remotely bad will happen to the character in question.

[Andols]

When is it too much?

When I begin hoping that something, anything, remotely bad will happen to the character in question.

I always want bad things to happen to main characters now. martin has skewed me.

[Sidmyster]

ive never thought i story was ruined becuase of an overpowerful character, however i think i remember thinking (nice sentence) that Pug was too powerfull in the Magician trilogy although i still enjoyed the books

[the gozzfather]

I think what irked me about Kellhus--and maybe I was supposed to be irked--was less his power and more that he had absolutely no (or very, very little) vulnerability, which made him rather unlikeable. I think that's the key to balancing power: coupling it with vulnerability, which is what Betty Cross was getting at. But as someone mentioned in that other thread it doesn't have to be physical weakness.

Yeah, I forgot about Erikson. His story is populated with demi-gods--Anomander Rake, Icarium, Caladan Brood, Silverfox, Kallor, etc--but rarely are they viewpoint characters.

I found Kellhus somewhat unlikeable as well;though I think that was Bakker's intention. Many fantasy protagonists are more brave and determined than cunning and Kellhus' ruthlessness and brilliance is a counterpoint to that as well as a possible commentary on what it takes to to defeat evil.
I think Bakker can get away with having one of his main characters being unrelatable because he has plenty of other vulnerable POV characters such as Achamian and Esmenet

[Roland 85]

I really don't think Kellhus is meant to be likeable at all. I mean, he is a hollow creature, with no emotion, and only purpose. He is the center of the story, but he is not the protagonist and we aren't meant to either like OR understand him.