[Kamakhya]

I just finished A Mote in Gods Eye by Niven and Pournelle. Despite having been published in 1975, it holds the dubious title of being one of the most sexist novels I have ever read. It was so sexist that at first i thought it was a joke, or at least an alternative view of the Moties. But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it was just downright sexist. That is a shame because the story is otherwise quite interesting and unique.

[ezchaos]

I just finished 'Revelation Space' by Alastair Reynolds last night and all I can say is I loved it! It was a dark, weird space opera. I really liked Reynolds characters, especially the Ultras. I'll definately be readin 'Chasm City' when it comes out in paperback.

Next it's on to 'The Scar' by China Mieville.

[vortexreader]

Originally posted by ezchaos
I just finished 'Revelation Space' by Alastair Reynolds last night and all I can say is I loved it! It was a dark, weird space opera. I really liked Reynolds characters, especially the Ultras. I'll definately be readin 'Chasm City' when it comes out in paperback.

Next it's on to 'The Scar' by China Mieville.
Chasm City is fantastic...even better than Revelation Space. I've just received Reynold's next, Redemption Ark, which I can't wait to get to.

This month I'm hoping to (finally) read Fallen Dragon by Hamilton, Altered Carbon by Morgan and Kiln People by Brin....as well as The Moon is a Harsh Mistress for the Reading Group.

[Bill]

It's been a while, but I've read Mote twice, and I can't think of anything that stood out in my mind as being exceptionally sexist. Perhaps my consciousness hasn't been sufficiently raised, but no one has ever accused me of being a Cro-Magnon. How are you defining the term "sexist"?

To me, books that would hold the title of being the most sexist things I've ever read would be something like the Gor novels of John Norman. Now those are sexist. James Bond is sexist. Refusing women the right to vote or believing that education is wasted on girls is sexist. Telling a little girl that she can't grow up to be a doctor but has to be a nurse is sexist. Paying a woman who is doing the same job as a man less money just because she is a woman is sexist.

However, there are quite a few things that have been declared sexist in the last few decades that simply are not. Refusing women entry into the infantry is not sexist. Making women firefighters meet the same physical standards as men firefighters is not sexist. (In fact, if you think about it, it’s just the opposite.) Recognizing that there are some fundamental differences between the sexes is not sexist. Not providing a daycare center at someone's place of employment may be bad business, but it isn't sexist unless the motivation is to keep women from working there. Girl watching is not sexist unless the girls in question make it clear that they don't want to be watched.

Now, where am I going wrong?

[Kamakhya]

Bill opined:

It's been a while, but I've read Mote twice, and I can't think of anything that stood out in my mind as being exceptionally sexist.

First, there is only one female character. I immediately noticed this when the book incuded a cast of characters. There are three basic types of characters: military, scientists and the aristocracy/politicians. In all three of these catagories, women are not only very rare, they are practically forbidden.

While I admit that we will probably never see an equal number of women in the military, it is absurd to think that there will be no women at all, particularly, when wars involve interstellar vehicles.

But, even more agregious was the lack of women represented in the scientists and ruling class. It was clear that the only place for a woman was in the home.

The sole female character was something of a renegade, though this was more like the folly of youth. In the end, it turns out she was manipulated by her more knowing uncle into a union with the captain. After all, the captain needed some heirs for the good of the empire.

Let's not forget her amazing discussion of sex with the moties. She explains that a "proper" lady would not have sexual relations until after marriage, nor would a "proper" lady use birth control pills.

To think after 1000 years of evolution, that what we end up with is an empire governed by men, and dominated by an all male military so that women can be "proper ladies" with virtually no room for a life outside of the bedroom.

Given that the book was published in 1975, I can only think this was Niven and Pournelle's response to the Women's Movement. :)

Kamakhya

[Bill]

First, I wanted to give myself a reality check, so I asked my sister and niece if they thought Mote was sexist. With a look reminiscent of "Have you been getting into the vanilla extract?" they told me no. When I explained why I asked, my niece added, unsolicited, that some people also find Heinlein to be sexist, but that she didn't agree.

Messrs. Pournelle and Niven are known to be married to exceptional women. Mrs. Pournelle is an expert at reading instruction. According to Dr. Pournelle, she has never failed in teaching a person to read, no matter if said student has been written off by the education establishment. She has been working for years on an interactive computer program (http://www.readingtlc.com/) that uses her methods.

I haven't read as much about Mrs. Niven. What I have read indicates that she is an extremely nice lady and a superlative hostess. She was a leading SF fan back in the day, when women SF fans were more rare than they are now. A quick Web search seems to indicate that she is still active in fandom.

I don't believe that either woman would put up with her husband being a male chauvinist. I'm fairly familiar with the work of both gentlemen, and I don't believe either one of them is a sexist. The social structure of Mote isn't some kind of wish fulfillment of the authors.

The setting is a based on Pournelle's CoDominium, but several hundred farther into the future than his Falkenberg stories and novels. In the Falkenberg stories, democracy is in the process of failing. By the time of Mote, much of humanity is under an empire ruled by a hereditary aristocracy that hasn't yet reached a decadent stage.

Now, I don't see any reason such a society wouldn't have rather Victorian notions of manners and morality. Societies with relatively open sexuality have alternated with those with closed sexuality throughout history. There is no reason to assume that current relaxed attitudes would still hold in an empire a thousand years from now. At any rate, using a quasi-Victorian aristocracy in a novel set in an expanding empire is hardly evidence of the authors' sexism.

Furthermore, there is some evidence that military aristocracy would, in fact, sharpen and delineate sex roles. Historically, the role of a non-decadent aristocracy is to supply military officers. That is where the term "an officer and a gentleman" comes from. In order to be an officer, one had to be a gentleman. As societies became more liberal, one could become a gentleman through training as well as by birth, but a "gentleman" was a member of the elite.

Also historically, women have not been soldiers. It is only recently that women have had even auxiliary roles in the armed services. America's current experiment with putting women aboard warships and in combat aircraft hasn't been tested in a major war. What evidence there is suggests it might not work out. Even if the evidence is wrong, postulating for the sake of an SF novel that women won't be part of the combat arm of the military is neither illegitimate nor evidence of sexism. The matter hasn't been settled.

Given an expansionistic empire in which the aristocrats are male warriors, it becomes likely that the women in that society would have a lesser role in politics. As far as them not being scientists goes, it's been a while since I've read the novel, but I don't recall it stating that science was exclusively a male domain. According to the cast of characters in the front of the novel, Sandra Fowler is a doctoral candidate in anthropology.

[Kamakhya]

At any rate, using a quasi-Victorian aristocracy in a novel set in an expanding empire is hardly evidence of the authors' sexism.

This is like saying that postulating that using blacks as slaves in a quasi-early American slave society is hardly evidence of an author's racism. :) Sure, you could argue that slavery has its economic advantages, but how well would such a novel go over in today's society?

I am not saying that Niven and Pournelle are sexist. I have read other books by them that did not strike me as sexist. In fact, I doubt that that was their intention. (I was kidding about it being a response to the Women's Movement.) However, setting the novel in a quasi-victorian setting where women are little better than cattle, just rubs me the wrong way.

Now, anyone read any other good novels this month?

Kamakhya

[Pirate Jenn]

I'm in the middle of the Exordium Series, right now (Smith and Trowbridge)...waiting impatiently for book four to arrive in the mail. It's so aggrivating when the books you want are hard to find!

I've found the series interesting so far. Extremely Russian novelesque. Many characters, many viewpoints (which, of course, is typical these days). It was pretty hard to get into, at first, but I was hooked after the first 100 pages (and, 1500 pages later...). There's some decent science, here. Comedy. Religion is dealt with--something which I think much sf tends to overlook (I can't see a future without things like Buddhism, Christianity, or Catholicism still lurking about).

I've been surprised many times, which is huge for me. Rarely can I read a book without seeing the plot twisting ahead of me.

Pirate Jenn

-Argh.

[Kamakhya]

Wow, Pirate Jenn...those sound like some good books. A shame that I've never heard of them. Can you share the tiles of the series?

Kamakhya

[Pirate Jenn]

The Exordium series came out in the 90's and is written by Sherwood Smith and David Trowbridge.

1) The Phoenix in Flight
2) Ruler of Naught
3) Prison Unsought
4) Rifter's Covenant
5) Throne of Kronos

They may be difficult to find at your local used bookseller, but should be available online via Amazon or Bookfinder.
(My appologies for not mentioning the titles previously)