[theonefirestorm]

A antagonist is a person that opposes the protagonist. They aren't a purposely evil. J Jonah Jameson opposes Spider Man by constantly twisting facts,and printing slanderous articles about the wallcrawler to get people to think he's a bad guy. Although not evil you can still say what he does is unethical unadmirable journalism. In the Godfather Trilogy the Mobsters are the protagonists so that makes the police that oppose them antagonists. When Lex Luthor got his own comic told from his point of view on why he could be humanity's champion, and Superman his archenemy is the antagonist. One person wants to turn what was a failed strip mall into a Water Park, another person wants to turn it into sports store in the tradition of The Sports Authority. Both of them compete fairly one of the protagonist the other a antagonist.

Villain A person that purposely does evil although rarely does a villain ever see themselves as a villain. The famous actor Robert Redford said I think it was a villain is never a villain in his own eyes. Most Villains see themselves as heroes, as they are heroes of their own stories if they were telling the stories. Sinestro believes the end's justify the means, and that he's not evil but his methods for bringing order will bring order to the Universe, and believes himself to be a hero. Magneto believes the only way to get rid of mutant prejudice, and prevent another holocaust is by killing humans. Scar wants to be king, and was willing to do anything shabby to become King including kill his own brother, convince his nephew that he was responsible for it, and should run away.He's to egotistical, and brazen to think what he did was bad. A example of a villain that is evil, and he knows it is Dc Comics Dr.Light. He takes enjoyment in rape, and murder. Another is Alex Delarge of The Clockwork Orange. He rapes, murders, and steals for his own enjoyment. He knows what he does is wrong. At the moment I'm writing a super hero movie where the main super villain, and 3 other super villains that work for them know they are wicked plus evil, know it, and love it

[tdnewton]

theonefirestorm, I think you're using some interesting examples, but I don't know if I completely agree.

I've always seen Jameson as more of an obstacle rather than an antagonist. An antagonist prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal. If Peter Parker's goal is to make an honest living, Jameson actually facilitates that rather than impedes it (no matter how unfriendly he does so). Peter could make a living doing any number of things, so the fact that he has an abusive boss doesn't really mean anything other than he's willing to put up with it.

Villains are the antithesis of heroes. Where a hero does altruistic things purely because they're the right thing to do, a villain does the opposite but believes they are doing the right thing. They wouldn't consider themselves "evil," at least not consciously. If a villain is purely doing evil just because he's evil, then he's not very complex and, probably, not very intelligent. Everything is a means to an end, after all, and there's got to be a motivation for every action and decision.

[Jennifer P]

And bear in mind that in some cases the protagonist can be a villain, at least at the start of the story. In that situation, your antagonist can be a hero.

[hippokrene]

The antagonist is whomever opposes the protagonist. A villain is an antagonist who is also bad, typically in contrast to the hero though you can have a situation like Best Served Cold where both the protagonist and the antagonists are bad. I mentioned Catwoman in the previous thread. She doesn't kill without good reason, poison the city's water, or mentally enslave people with her plant pheromones. She robs people and stops other criminals on occasion. She's much nicer than the rest of Batman's rogue gallery, but she's still a villain, however, because she's an amoral law-breaker who's in opposition to the protagonist.

Now, in her own comic, she's an anti-hero.

Protagonists cannot be villains though they can be villainous. Antagonists can't be heroes though they can be heroic.

[Lucanus]

I've always seen Jameson as comic relief if a wise cracking super hero actually needs such a thing. He's a pain in the butt. He doesn't actually harm Spidey in any meaningful way. He is the embodiment of the multitude of small things that are always going wrong for the hero but to call him an antagonist is a little bit of a reach. Having said that great thread. I always like to read up on this subject.

[tdnewton]

Protagonists cannot be villains though they can be villainous. Antagonists can't be heroes though they can be heroic.

A-$%@#ing-men. :D

[KatG]

Protagonists cannot be villains though they can be villainous. Antagonists can't be heroes though they can be heroic.

Well no, that's not necessarily true. Being a protagonist does not give you a get out of jail free card on being a villain. And an antagonist is not barred from being a hero just because he or she opposes the protagonist. A protagonist is who the story is chiefly about. An antagonist is someone who ends up in opposition to the protagonist. There is no good or bad attached to those roles.

Now, it is true that 9.998 times out of 10, the author will build reader sympathy for the protagonist despite any villainy of the protagonist. But sympathy doesn't make a protagonist a hero. Whether the characters are seen mainly as heroes or mainly as villains depends on the interpretations of readers for those characters. Essentially, you the author can view your characters as villains or heroes and try to get the audience to agree with you in the telling of your story, but you can't actually make them agree with you.

[creatorofPreten]

I have no idea, honestly.

I have been having this debate about whether my favorite character is truly evil or not, and I still have no idea.

To me that is the dividing line, an antagonist is an opposing force, but is not evil, while a villain is evil.

[Window Bar]

One of the finest fantasies I've ever read is by Kazantzakis: The Last Temptation of Christ, in which the protagonist is Judas Iscariot -- and he, among Jesus' weak sycophantic crowd, is the only intellectual with an objective historical perspective of what is taking place. Not only is it a first class work of literature, it also shows that even the word villain (which for 2000 years has been defined by the character of Judas), is also defined by context.

- WB

[theonefirestorm]

theonefirestorm, I think you're using some interesting examples, but I don't know if I completely agree.

I've always seen Jameson as more of an obstacle rather than an antagonist. An antagonist prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal. If Peter Parker's goal is to make an honest living, Jameson actually facilitates that rather than impedes it (no matter how unfriendly he does so). Peter could make a living doing any number of things, so the fact that he has an abusive boss doesn't really mean anything other than he's willing to put up with it.

Villains are the antithesis of heroes. Where a hero does altruistic things purely because they're the right thing to do, a villain does the opposite but believes they are doing the right thing. They wouldn't consider themselves "evil," at least not consciously. If a villain is purely doing evil just because he's evil, then he's not very complex and, probably, not very intelligent. Everything is a means to an end, after all, and there's got to be a motivation for every action and decision.

Jameson is a antagonist to Spider Man the super hero. This is the same guy that funded Spider slayers, The Fly, and the Scorpion. Spider Man is doing his job, and Jameson tries to bring him down by printing bad articles to get people to hate him. Spider Man could save a bunny that got hit the Lizard, and Jameson would come some crap that Spider Man hit the bunny, or that Spider Man staged the event.
I disagree. Demons, ghouls, and other super natural villains are evil by nature. To say they aren't intelligent is foolish when demons can fool people since they have two forms a human form, then their real form the demon form. Are you kidding me you can have villains that are being evil because they are evil, and because of being blunt. Or because they narcisstic pos deadbeat grotty garbage trashrags. Look at Alex Delarge of The Clockwork Orange he rapes, kills, and steal's know it's wrong but loves it doing it for his own amusement.