[turbolung]

* I know I just posted a thread that I loved A Song of Ice and Fire, but, that was before more people died. I believe this topic requires a new thread!

** SPOILERS AHEAD.

Dear Mr. Martin, what have you done? It’s so horrible and it can’t be undone. :mad: My problem is this; I have read thousands of pages of A Song of Ice and Fire on certain characters and grown attached to them AND they have all died! :eek:

Now I am starting to wonder what the whole point of following the Stark family was all about. :confused: I mean, was there even a point to having the Stark family in the story? What purpose have they served? None have really achieved anything. The whole story has been focused on them. The books revolve about them and they have been killed off.

It seems as though all the good people are killed or severely punished and the bad are rewarded. When I read a book, I want to see the good guys get in a blow or two. I want to see good triumph, or at least win one little battle! There has been none, and, it is getting worse. :(

And what is the point of the dire wolves? Each child got to raise one. There were the exact amount of wolves found in the snow per child, so, you would expect some great things to happen between them. You would expect fate to play a part with the dire wolves and children, but, no, the ****ing wolves are as useless as the Starks. :mad: They play no part in the story at all. What are they even in the book for?

So now, I can’t even feel the anguish of Catelyn, because she is dead too and so is the King of the North. Frustrating. It’s almost as though the books are now new, different books because all the main characters have been slain.

I just can’t get over the fact that I followed these characters traveling all around Westeros and they didn’t actually achieve a single damn thing. What a waste. :(

Well, that said, the story and characters and twists are still amazing and I still love the books, but I need to get this off my chest and see what your thoughts on this subject are. :) :D ;)

Cheers,

TL

[FantasyandLogic]

Your not alone. I actually threw the book against the wall when Robb was killed. He was one of the few remaining characters I was rooting for. I am pretty sure everybody was shocked to some degree when they read that part.

Good news though. From reading this post it seems you haven't finished A Feast for Crows yet. Without alluding to anything he does give you new characters to root for, reasons to root for old ones you might have previously disliked, and hate many of the ones you probably already despise.

[KatG]

Well there's dead and then there's dead, if you know what I mean.

[Evil Agent]

How are the direwolves useless? Ghost and Summer have played important roles. Grey Wind helped Robb in battle many times, and tried to give him warnings about who not to trust. Nymeria is still out there leading a pack of wild wolves (who knows how this will play out). The only "useless" ones so far have been Lady (which still played a part in the evolution of Sansa's character) and Shaggydog.

Secondly, I still love the Starks, and don't think they are useless... but maybe you were wrong in assuming they were the central characters of these books? GRRM likes to mess with typical fantasy conventions, and the Stark family is no exception to this.

[chokipokilo]

SPOILERS if you haven't finished SoS.

Tyrion is still alive, so that's all that really matters.

Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jon...the central young characters of the family are all still kicking. Martin killed off one generation to pave the way for the next.

And I would consider the deaths of Joff & Tywin and Jon becoming a leader after defeating The King Beyond the Wall to all be significant victories.

[turbolung]

I actually threw the book against the wall when Robb was killed.

LOL!

Without alluding to anything he does give you new characters to root for…

Yes, but, I might as well be reading another book. I invested so much time into the Starks! On top of this, I am paranoid now that any decent character will be killed.

Well there's dead and then there's dead, if you know what I mean.

I think the way these characters are killed leaves no room for them to be brought back. I actually think the reason for Martin taking so long to write the next book is either a) he does not know what to do now, or, b) the backlash has been that bad towards Martin killing these beloved characters that he is stumped and is having a tissy fit. If this was written by Eriksson (Garden of the Moon), then, yes, I would expect Robert to come back alive, because in Garden of the Moon no one could physically really die… except for Gods. They died like flies.

How are the direwolves useless?

Because they have done **** all to help anyone; except for Brandon when the killer came for him. This type of thing is what I was expecting and hoping for the rest of the series.

Ghost and Summer have played important roles. Grey Wind helped Robb in battle many times, and tried to give him warnings about who not to trust.

So what, it didn’t help Rob any. Both were killed. And you strengthen my point; Rob and the wolf went through a lot together to what end? They achieved nothing. The battles, the dialogue the adventuring all amounted to nothing in the end. Their deaths seem unnatural to the flow of the story. It would be like watching a James Bond film and half way through that short-arsed Asian dude kills 007 and the movie continues with 006, only to have 006 killed and the story continued with 005 and then… You get my point.

Nymeria is still out there leading a pack of wild wolves (who knows how this will play out). The only "useless" ones so far have been Lady (which still played a part in the evolution of Sansa's character) and Shaggydog.

How is Nymeria leading a pack of wolves useful? Guaranteed she’ll be killed by some farmer boy and his sling-shot. The wolves ARE cool, but, they are nearly as useless as the Starks.

Secondly, I still love the Starks, and don't think they are useless...

Okay, other than all dying off; what have they done? They lost Winterfell. They left the NightWatch in a shambles. Some bloke sacrificed his life for Jon so that Jon could integrate with the Wildlings and what happens? Within a week, Jon runs away from the Wildlings and achieved nothing by joining them and at the same time has made the other guy's death a mockery. Eddard Stark didn’t uncover the mysterious death of the previous Hand because he was beheaded. Sansa is as useless as an ejector seat in a helicopter. Brandon is crippled and enters his wolf’s body (no, not in the way you are thinking for those who have not read the book) and does nothing but attacks deer. Arya is just running about hiding and has done nothing useful. She has copped an axe to the head and I don't know what happens to her yet. Rob, the king, did **** all and dies. Catelyn just moans about everything and is then killed. Rickon… Well, Rickon is like a toddler and is hardly in the series yet.

… but maybe you were wrong in assuming they were the central characters of these books?

How? 5 massive books into it and most of the chapters are all about the Starks! The whole war started with the Starks. What are you taking about?

GRRM likes to mess with typical fantasy conventions, and the Stark family is no exception to this.

Mess with them? He’s nuked their family, home and ancestors into last century.

[Evil Agent]

How? 5 massive books into it and most of the chapters are all about the Starks! The whole war started with the Starks. What are you taking about?I think I was clear. GRRM started with a focus on the Starks, but he has shifted it towards other characters now. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[turbolung]

I think I was clear. GRRM started with a focus on the Starks, but he has shifted it towards other characters now. Why is this so difficult to understand?

No, because you don't make me read about a family for 5 massive, thick books and then suddenly kill them. At least before he killed them, he could have made them do something. All this time, they haven't done anything. They just constantly got their arses kicked. Even when they remotely do something cool, like capturing The Kingslayer, they let the ****er go.

PS - I still love the books to death. I can't stop reading them. I guess because he writes so well, I have become attached to the characters and can't handle them dying.

[chokipokilo]

What five massive books are you talking about? There's only 4 out right now, and I don't think you've read the last one.

Secondly, GRRM is not your b***h. You're the fish and he's got the reel. You're hooked man, he can do whatever he wants and you'll be helpless to follow along.

[phil_geo]

I thought I read somewhere Martin wanted the arc of the epic to be about the fall and the eventual rise of the Starks, but I agree. He kicked them too hard for me. And I think you nailed the main problem - so many things the characters do are ultimately futile. Ned's entire time as the Hand, Rob's entire rebellion, Brienne's futile search for Sansa. The mistake Martin made is that those characters didn't have arcs, they just had lines straight down to their death. Instead of an interesting story, it's just a bunch of stuff that happened.

That doesn't even bother me as much as my bigger worry - he has made his story too epic, starting far more storylines than he can complete. He dwells on characters we don't care about, and he is not going to satisfactorily get the Starks back together before the end. Case in point, the next book we have all been waiting for occurs at the same time as the last book, and will largely be about characters I don't care about.

Of course I'll read his upcoming stuff and he may deliver, but if it falls apart as badly as Erikson's books 6, 7 and 8 I will consider it a failure.