[milamber_reborn]

Thanks rotty, that's what I meant. Being knighted today just aint the same as it used to be. Ser looks so much cooler than Sir, but yeah, it's probably just Martin giving things different names.

[rotty1021]

No problem, Milamber.;)

[Cadfael]

Originally posted by saintjon
Dude, in real life "Sir" means you've been knighted lol. I think it's just a subtle way for Martin to push that it's a different world, they spell the honorific just a little differently.

Disagree... I was in the army, and was refered to as as 'Sir' by those of lesser rank than me... I was never knighted. Children in UK schools refer to their teachers as 'Sir'... it is a mark of respect.

I do agree with the 'Ser' thing though... it means the person has actually been knighted... I have seen it used in other non-fiction books... and has just fallen into dissuse in modern times.

[saintjon]

Well, there's no reason to think that in the future of Martin's world the term "ser" wouldn't attain the broad use we get out of "sir".

[Oorag]

If I recall correctly, "Ser" is Continental European, while "Sir" is English.

[Jedi Redux]

I have only read book one, "Song of Ice and Fire", so have avoided reading spoiler posts!



Rarely have I had such mixed feelings after reading a book. Martin writes a very interesting story, well woven intrigue in places, good believable characters in parts.

his plot development is rubbish.

so many bad plot devices, so many characters making decisions completely outwith their character and the situations they are involved in. It gives the impression of hurriedly filling in plot holes, or else the guy just needs a better editor. Twice in the first half of the book the plot was progressed by exploring children overhearing conversations. a plot device which has the sophistication of enid blyton, ok for the kids (and Potter fans), but leaves me frustrated. "blah, blah, blah, ....we gonna kill the Hand.....blah blah...... like we killed the last one.....blah ....as long as those pesky kids dont hear us...." At best this reminds me of blytons childrens stories mixed with scooby doo, at worst I thought of The Comic Strip spoof, "Five Go Mad in Dorset". Absolutely awful and almost had me flinging the book at the wall in frustration. But i persevered.

How much more dreadful plotting can i fit in this post? Catelyn Stark entering The Vale of Arryn with her Imp prisoner, with the imp's new sellsword bodyguard wanting to accompany them. the author has lady Stark agreeing because there was no graceful way to say no. Awful!!!! In reality, and with what we knew of the decisiveness of Catelyn Stark, she would have turned and said, "No my friend, thank you for your assistance on the road, for which you will be well rewarded, but you shall come no farther". THAT is what Catelyn Stark would have said, remember this is the character who several chapters later we find giving (good!) strategical and political advice to her son in time of war. But this would not fit at the time, as Martin needed the sellsword in the Eyrie to rescuse the imp so he has characters acting completely out of character to help him fill a hole in his plot.

Martin builds a good sense of political intigue in Kings Landing. all factions manuevering round the Throne, ready to make a move, sometimes hard to keep a track of all the factions, but when the moment of decision comes, when the time is right to strike, the Great Lord Eddard Stark, 2nd most powerful man in the Kingdom, and a friend and ally to many powerful Lords and Families, bets his life, the life of his family and everyone he knows on....on.......
the city watchmen.

where did they come from? had they been mentioned before? what did he know of them? or their political affiliation?, their leaders?, goddammit what did he know of their ability to help him!!!!? Dreadful plotting. Before this he had been warned by one of his (over hearing) children about a plot to kill him, Despite the fact he already strongly suspected the previous Hand had been killed, had been contacted by people to say plots were afoot, was investigating plots himself, and there was no previous record of his child being a liar, he dismissed the story out of hand!

Awful also the way Martin had Eddard Stark cornered into killing one of his children's wolf bodyguards. The real Eddard Stark would have walked into that crowded audience room, picked up his distressed child in his arms, smoothed her hair, before turning to his King and saying "By your leave your Grace, my child will stand before you and answer you on the morrow. and you alone" And strode out of the hall. But no, this would not fit Martin's plotting, he needed to corner Stark and make him kill a direwolve, so changed him and made him act completely out of character.

I will go no further on this line, as I believe I have made my point, i have at least half a dozen other instances like this whhich for me are glaring mistakes, and I hate such, as it treats me as a achild. If i want to read simple child's books, i will pick up a Potter or a Da Vinci Code, I expected more from Martin, a smattering of swear words does not make a sophisticated adults book.

[Gregor Clegane]

You make good points Jedi, and I can see your points of view. However I think that the characters could easily have done as they did without straying from outside their character.

Twice in the first half of the book the plot was progressed by exploring children overhearing conversations. a plot device which has the sophistication of enid blyton

A child like Arya or Bran (when he could climb), who explore all the places where they shouldn't be, are far more likely to overhear something than their father Eddard who doesn't have the time or the luxury to creep about eavesdropping on conversations.

How much more dreadful plotting can i fit in this post? Catelyn Stark entering The Vale of Arryn with her Imp prisoner, with the imp's new sellsword bodyguard wanting to accompany them. the author has lady Stark agreeing because there was no graceful way to say no. Awful!!!! In reality, and with what we knew of the decisiveness of Catelyn Stark, she would have turned and said, "No my friend, thank you for your assistance on the road, for which you will be well rewarded, but you shall come no farther". THAT is what Catelyn Stark would have said, remember this is the character who several chapters later we find giving (good!) strategical and political advice to her son in time of war. But this would not fit at the time, as Martin needed the sellsword in the Eyrie to rescuse the imp so he has characters acting completely out of character to help him fill a hole in his plot.

So leave the very people who had accompanied her out in the savage lands as way of a thank you? No, she WOULD have invited them in as a sign of hospitality. And Catelyn might have wanted an escort back out of The Vale. She wouldn't have wanted to rely entirely on her sisters men.

where did they come from? had they been mentioned before? what did he know of them? or their political affiliation?, their leaders?, goddammit what did he know of their ability to help him!!!!? Dreadful plotting. Before this he had been warned by one of his (over hearing) children about a plot to kill him, Despite the fact he already strongly suspected the previous Hand had been killed, had been contacted by people to say plots were afoot, was investigating plots himself, and there was no previous record of his child being a liar, he dismissed the story out of hand!

The city watch made the only viable help for Eddard. He is outmanned and far from home. Now I concede that he didn't know for a certainty they would help him but if it wasn’t for Stansa blurting then he might well have succeeded. Also Littlefinger had helped him before with Catelyn so it is possible that he would help the Starks again if only for Catelyn. As for ignoring his child... it has been a while since I read the books and I don't have instant access to them to reread exactly what happens, but a child is often ignored especially when the father is busy.

Awful also the way Martin had Eddard Stark cornered into killing one of his children's wolf bodyguards. The real Eddard Stark would have walked into that crowded audience room, picked up his distressed child in his arms, smoothed her hair, before turning to his King and saying "By your leave your Grace, my child will stand before you and answer you on the morrow. and you alone" And strode out of the hall. But no, this would not fit Martin's plotting, he needed to corner Stark and make him kill a direwolve, so changed him and made him act completely out of character.

Honour is a strange thing. Eddard is bound to his king by it, just as he is bound to his family. It is not entirely unreasonable that Eddard would do as he did. Even if Eddard did as you said, I still think the result would have been the same. Cersei would have seen to it, or Joffrey would have.

[MNicole]

Jedi -

You really need to read the other two books. I have a degree in literature and I still find GRRM to be incredibly talented. You have to allow some leeway with the plot development in the first book of such a HUGE story because the author is setting the stage for six enormously complicated books. You also have to allow for the fact that this is FANTASY and sometimes there aren't very many ways to develop a very fantastical element of the plot. As far as fantasy books go, I have read some of the best and GRRM has the most complex and skillfully executed plot development of any other fantasy authors. The campy tricks, such as having spying children reveal developments, are much much fewer and farther between in the next books. Give them a try and don't allow yourself to be jaded by any more negative crticism until you've seen all of what GRRM is trying to do. All of this meant with the best humor, off course :D

[shellback97]

It's threads like these that make me stay the hell away from message boards.

[shellback97]

I Should probably let this whole thing die as I hinted was appropriate in my first post, however, Jedi, you want to bash the book at least have the decency to start a new thread and not bump some thread everyone forgot about last year. Unless of course you're bumping this thread as part of some agenda to drum up reaction from people, in which case you've got one, but you're still being silly. Anyway your main point is that people don't respond in character to the dillemas presented to them. Well I happen to completely disagree with you but I would like you to consider these points.

First I happen to thing you are making your assessment based on the fact that you expect these characters to respond the way a cynical American would respond in that situation and not someone brought up in that culture and world. Second this is Epic Fantasy we are talking about here. Name some other books of Epic Fantasy where you find the Characters reactions above reproach (or at least more logical than in Martin). There has been talk on this thread about Steinbeck in particular, but other Nobel prize winning authors have been mentioned. I don't want any refrences to how characters in Nobel prize winning books respond, or to Pulitzer prize winning books, or to any novels that any university might make anyone read as part of a class, keep it to epic fantasy, that is what this is about. And the reality is that these characters and these plots, not just in Martin, but in alot of Science Fiction and Fantasy out today, are significantly better than the majority of main stream fiction that routinely makes the best sellers list. I have no problem with people who do not like epic fantasy but I do have a problem with people holding it to a higher standard then is appropriate.