[nquixote]

Reposted from my post in another thread:

Sure, we could all get along, but what's the point? There is a small finite number of things that it is interesting to discuss in a forum about books. You can discuss book plots in spoiler threads. You can give recommendations and explain why people might like something. You can discuss market details like release dates, sales figures, etc.

OR, you can argue about which books and authors are better than which others. This is, fundamentally, a silly argument, since there's no way to tell who's "right" and there's probably no way to change people's minds. It's merely a fun form of social interaction. People enjoy arguing, as long as the arguments are friendly and safe (ever seen a bunch of old Jewish men get together?). Arguments on the internet are safe, because they aren't face-to-face, and because you can be anonymous if you choose. And if arguments turn unfriendly ("How dare you like that author you moron" etc.), anyone is free to just stop participating at any time.

Fanboi flame-wars are to real interpersonal conflict what Grand Theft Auto is to real crime. It's a way to satisfy our baser impulses in a harmless manner. Now, maybe flame-wars could be annoying to people who come to forums for other reasons, but that problem seems like it could easily be solved by flagging or relocating threads or posts that get too flame-y, and/or having a dedicated sub-forum for arguments. That would seem to require less effort on the part of moderators than going around issuing endless "warnings," rules clarifications, etc. And it would also be more respectful to forum participants, who IMHO deserve to be treated as adults.

But hey, it's not my forum.

[Sparrow]

I could not possibly agree more with you.

It's not the insufferable that cause so many problems, it's the weenies among us.

FlameWars.com; Weenie is a very sensitive guy/gal, and it angers and saddens them that everyone isn't just as sensitive as they are.


I wonder sometimes if it's because they lack all control in their lives that in some small way they get back at others by being ever so sensitive, and ever so good and kind and thoughtful. If they can raise a hand and flag down a mod to close down a thread that this is a sort of victory.

[3rdI]

.............

[Hobbit]

We're always conscious of that one, to be honest: which is why we usually check before taking such action.

Usually it takes us a while for us to close a thread: we do try and give all members the benefit of the doubt until we have to do something.

As for treating members as adults: we do try, even when they're not.

Most members get that we prefer to self-regulate before we take action. There's always a grey area where we could be accused of either acting too soon or too late. But we do try.

As for an Adults only area:it's not really what we're about. We prefer an open-to-all policy. Members can of course choose to participate, or not.

Mark

[nquixote]

Well, Mark, the thing is this. I've been on these forums a while now, and they're good forums. But every time I see some member get a "warning" in some thread - usually over something that would be considered innocuous in most places on the internet - it makes me want to quit these forums for good. Giving public "warnings" is what you do to little kids, not to adults. If someone is really causing problems on the forums, at least be respectful enough to send them a private message.

Regarding profanity, if you don't want it on your forum, why not just use the vBulletin profanity filter, instead of spamming threads with ominous, authoritarian-sounding, condescending public "warnings"?

Also, I believe that your zeal in forbidding "personal attacks" is misplaced. People enjoy teasing each other. Most of the "personal attacks" that I have seen the moderators here (particularly KatG) come down on people for are much closer to friendly, lighthearted teasing than to verbal abuse.

Keep in mind that I am not mainly speaking of my own posts here; although I feel that KatG has personally harassed me a bit, by far the bulk (and by far the worst) of the authoritarian, condescending "warnings" that I have seen have been directed at other posters, usually in the fantasy forum. It just makes me uncomfortable to see it done.

Like I said, these are good forums. But they would be much better without the atmosphere of authoritarianism and condescension that occasionally pervades them. The internet is a place where people come to escape that kind of stifling atmosphere.

Again, just my 2 cents.

[Bastard]

The problem nquixote is that you give public warnings so that other forum goers learn about posting behavior that is not acceptable. I have no problem with that. The funny thing is that many of these people that get warned publicly don't give a crap and keep instigating mods unnecessarily, making discussion in threads go off-topic in a us vs. them crap which if I was running this forum I'd have even less tolerance for it. To me, that's the biggest no-no. It's toxic behavior, and I'm sure that as much as they get public warnings, they also have gotten pm's from mods here concerning their behavior. Yet they keep doing the same crap.

Everything has it's place, and being a "rebel" of sorts in discussion threads is just a pain the ass. Really, showing up a mod is just disruptive and should not be tolerated. I wouldn't, particularly when they're doing a thankless job.

If you want a better atmosphere, how about when a mod tells you not to do something, you actually stop doing it for a change? Instead of being flippant about it. We're guests here, and for better or worse, forum communities are a dictatorship and as soon as people realize that, the better it will be.

And believe me, I hate seeing people banned, but there has to be a line somewhere. Maybe now people will start taking mod warnings a bit more seriously and we can get back into actual discussions of our favorite novels without all the crap distraction.

I've only been here a couple of years, but looking at some old threads, it seems to me that ChrisW has been on the wrong side of forum rules more than a few times. That he has lasted this long should be a testament to how lenient mods/admins here have been. The opposite of what they're being accused of.

I run some other forums, admin/mod and the rules are less strict, but I'm more firm when they get broken. The result? Posters that are just disruptive just get gone, and the good posters and good discussion remains. That's the way it should be in my opinion. In fact, at times even if someone is not breaking the rules, but I see a pattern of crappy posts that is just leading to crap discussion I just ban the person outright, and the forum is better for it.

[Kaeru]

Just on some of what Bastard said, my brother, my husband and I all run this teeny, little, nine member forum. We had to scrap the whole thing and start over recently due to how badly things had been run into the ground by a few no longer members. Nine people, and sometimes it's STILL a huge headache. I don't even want to know how hard it is to run a forum this size with so many strong and differing personalities. There's no way in the world they can please all of us, so they're just doing what they can to keep it running as smoothly and close to the intended purpose as possible. Thankless job is absolutely right.

[Hobbit]

Appreciate your honesty, all, as you see it.

The comments by staff, as B has mentioned above, are usually there to show a) that something has been noticed that raises concern; b) that something has been done; and c) we are taking action so that it can be seen that we're doing something.

Authoritarian? We are a moderated site: says it on the door as you come in. You get what we say we are. But within that staff will try not to act until things become serious. Often a word along the way will keep things in line before the staff feel they have to be rather heavy on such things. Most members are happy within that.

Condescending? Well we try not to be, and like this post, we try and explain why we're doing something so that people can see. Sometimes we do feel like we're repeating the same mantra, and I guess as a result might be read as condescending. Older members seem OK with it; newer members who perhaps don't know the site or its members (or its staff!) so well, perhaps less so. Again, which is why staff try and explain what's been done/is being done.

As for the 'other boards don't do this' idea, that never has washed with us, frankly. We do things here our way, always have done; and whilst where there may be times that it is idiosyncratic, it has worked for us in the past. We try and show where we're being reasonable and fair. Perhaps we should now stop that.

The difficulty is that what is seen as authoritarian and condescending by some is alternatively liked by others because we are seen as fair and trying to keep things moving without detractions. C'est la vie.

However: I will discuss with staff and the owner further: if we feel that we should move to just removing posts and members without letting other members know, then we may do so.

Mark

[nquixote]

Authoritarian? We are a moderated site: says it on the door as you come in. You get what we say we are.

Well that's true. I am not claiming that you don't have a right to act in a high-handed manner. I am simply saying that I think it might not be the optimal way to do things, in terms of the overall user experience.

We try and show where we're being reasonable and fair. Perhaps we should now stop that.

Well, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about defending yourself unless a bunch of people start making accusations. Basically, the lower the percentage of posts dedicated to rules and punishments, the better a forum gets, IMHO.

Each post dedicated to rules and punishments, it seems to me, comes with a cost in terms of overall forum quality. That is my opinion, I don't know who else shares it.

However: I will discuss with staff and the owner further: if we feel that we should move to just removing posts and members without letting other members know, then we may do so.

Mark

Well, basically, if it's something specific to a single poster (e.g. "You have been warned," "This is your second strike," etc.), there seems to me no reason to do it in a conversation thread instead of in a personal message. Unless your goal is to "make a public example" of the offending forum member...which I suspect it is not.

And finally, in terms of which material is allowed, I again urge you to be more tolerant of personal teasing. I think most of our egos can handle being called a "fanboy" once in a while. ;)

[Hobbit]

In the light of the comments made here and in other recent threads I'm going to follow suggestions and say that if anyone wishes to discuss this matter further feel free to PM me.

Otherwise I'm happy to close it, for now at least.

Mark