[Carmichael]

What is the definition of an intelligent species? Is it the ability to express oneself? The ability to create tools? I ask this because of an article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer that I just read. In it, orinthologist were discussing Betty and Abel, a pair of black crows. Apparently, the two were given a bucket of food which could only be accessed through a tube, and two pieces of wire, one straight, one bent. Abel stole the bent one from her and kept it for himself. So Betty took the straight wire and bent it into the shape she needed to get the food. The scientists studying the duo started giving them only straight wires. Betty continued to take them and bend them to suit her. Abel of course, continued to let her make them then steal them from her.
So, are they intelligent as we define it? Or is this merely a survival instinct?

Thoughts?
Questions?
Comments?

Rick

[Miriamele]

It seems like intelligence to me, because the birds actually figured out how to solve a problem.

I don't think instinct can help solve new problems, it only tells animals how to react in common situations. This works even with humans. For example, instinct will tell us to run and hide if someone is trying to attack us, but intelligence will help us to either disarm the bad guy or find a suitable hiding place.

With the crows, instinct tells them to eat but intelligence helped them find a way to eat in this situation.

This story definitely sounds like intelligence to me.

[Killer Chicken]

Yeah, I'm going to agree with Miriamele, but I think that there are several levels of intelligence, and some birds are smarter than others. Abel, was like the crook human, who let's others do the work and then take from them. Betty seemed like the "problem solving" person, who needed to identify the problem and find a solution to it. They both are intelligent, but they are in different ways. Much like humans, but which is more intelligent, the one who solves, or the one who takes...?

Personally I think that Abel is more intelligent, I'm not telling you to go steal, but Abel got the same results by doing less work. This skill wouldn't help it all of the time, but in this instance it seems like Abel is more intelligent.

[Pirate Jenn]

I think they're intelligent.

I've been looking at this issue a lot, lately. Scientists get these pompous ideas about what makes us human. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, that much is for certain--we've all had dogs who won't be caged.

So is it emotion? language? Is it art? Octopus have gardens (the Beatles tell us so--but it's true ;) ) and Koko the gorilla can, apparently fingerpaint (it's all about Materials, as any artist knows ;) )

Anyhow, it seems that many scientists have latched onto this idea that Language is what separates man from beast. So, when they learn that Vervet monkeys have a language (a word for "eagle" that means that, if you are in a tree, you should climb down. A word for "snake" that means, if you are in the grass, you should climb into the tree), they decide that it isn't specifically language so much as "symbol"--the ability to generate metaphor.

The only problem with this is that, if you study the way that gorillas and monkeys use sign language, you'd quickly see that they creatively express the few words they know and re-arrange them into symbol. Koko the gorilla once described a watermelon as "drink fruit" because it was so juicy. She calls her boyfriend "toilet" because she doesn't like him. She calls women "lips" instead of women. She can use one word to represent more than one idea and this, I think, is what symbol is.

I dunno. It's a dang weird thing, is what it is. Maybe animals are as intelligent as humans--they could just have different priorities. And, who knows?--maybe they have better priorities than we do.

[someguy]

Is a dog capable of asking itself:

"I am a dog. What does that mean? Why are dogs the way we are? WHy do I enjoy chasing a ball?"

One way of thinking of intelligence is the ability to ask those kind of self reflecting questions. By which score I believe animals would fail (though it is hard to prove either way....)

[saintjon]

I like the part of the Tao of Pooh where it says that instinct is a scientist's way of saying "I don't know".

[Eventine]

One way of thinking of intelligence is the ability to ask those kind of self reflecting questions

Maybe animals think we are less intelligent because we ask those types of questions, when they already know the answers.